Cinnamon Roll Tangzhong Method Test 1

Discussion in 'Pastry' started by Norcalbaker59, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I've been playing around with the scalded flour technique used in both Scandinavian and Japanese baking. The technique produces very moist, soft, light and fluffy crumb.

    Tangzhong is a roux made by heating a small portion of the flour with water or milk. The ratio is usually 1:5 flour to water or milk. I find it can be made and used successfully with a 1:4 ratio.

    The most popular method is to heat the roux in the microwave. But I do not like the lack of control with the microwave method. When
    over-heated, the roux becomes a heavy mass that cannot be blended into the primary dough. I much prefer heating the roux on the stovetop.

    There doesn't seem to be a standard of when to add the tangzhong. I mixed the tangzhong with my yeast sponge, then added the flour to incorporate; rested 10 minutes; mixed in sugar, salt, and butter which required about 4 minutes of mixing. Then kneaded the dough by machine for 5 minutes.

    The method produced a very light and fluffy cinnamon roll.

    It had excellent rise with the finished rolls were just over 2 1/2" high. Even the smaller end pieces rose up beautifully. The texture was very soft and the crumb moist.

    So this was test 1. Im going to develop a filling and glaze is I think cinnamon rolls can be quite. These were glazed with the traditional sour cream glazed. I'm thinking an orange almond or maple pecan roll would be more interesting.

    Ready for final proof
    IMG_8987.JPG


    Final proof complete, ready to bake.
    IMG_8993.JPG


    Good rise at over 2 1/2"
    IMG_9003.JPG
     

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    Norcalbaker59, Aug 15, 2017
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  2. Norcalbaker59

    ChesterV Well-Known Member

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    I used to work for a fast food place called Grandys here in the southern USA.

    One of my duties was to make the cinnamon rolls. Their cinnamon rolls were the best I ever had in my life, and that includes anything from any of those cinnamon roll places in the malls.

    The best I can describe their recipe is a sourdough roll dough, rolled out as thin as possible, brushed with real butter, sprinkled with a thick layer of cinnamon sugar, sprinkled with chopped pecans and raisins..........then rolled up tight, cut into 1 1/2 inch rounds, placed in a baking pan, brushed with more butter, placed in the proofing room, and then placed in the oven.

    Once cooled.....coated with a thick, soft, cream cheese Royal Icing.

    OMG! Best things EVER!!!!


    I could never figure out their recipe for the sourdough they used though. It had to have been something they worked on for years to get right. So light, so fluffy, so freekin awesomely drool-worthy!!!!

    [​IMG]

    It's been YEARS since I worked for them, so they have probably changed their recipe to something more "economical". But that original recipe one......OMG!!!!
     
    ChesterV, Aug 15, 2017
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  3. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    That's a really good looking roll. When I was growing up the bakeries in California always sold cinnamon rolls with nuts and raisins in them. Even the crappy pre-packed grocery store cinnamon rolls had raisins. But other states I lived in only sold plain cinnamon rolls. So I've always associated the raisins and nuts version as the California cinnamon roll. Great to know others appreciate a cinnamon roll with a few add-ins.

    There's a bread blog I really like called The Perfect Loaf. The blogger posted a sourdough cinnamon roll recipe or year or so ago. Because he doesn't like very acidic sourdough as a matter of course, he refreshes his starter frequently. So he said the rolls turned out well. I think that would be the key, using a very subtle starter so as not to overwhelm the sweetness.

    I'm going to do a few more tweaks on my recipe. Definitely won't use the non-stack pan again. I want a paler color. And I think I want a bit more complex flavors.

    Once I get the tangzhong down, I'm going to try a GF version.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Aug 16, 2017
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  4. Norcalbaker59

    ChesterV Well-Known Member

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    Some other "ad-ins" I've heard about people putting in cinnamon rolls.........

    Candied orange peel bits
    Streusel topping bits
    Candied pecans or walnuts
    Slivered almonds
    Honey/Maple sticky glaze

    and even putting some poppy seeds in the dough, for poppyseed cinnamon rolls.

    If you have some "guinea pigs" you use for taste testing, you might try some "off the wall" recipes on them.
    I've got some friends that are my dedicated "guinea pigs" for when I come up with some funky bread recipes.
    They are really good at feedback and tell me how it tastes and everything.


    And although I like cinnamon rolls, I like mine loaded with all sorts of crap. LOL
    Raisins are ok, but it's GOT to have TONS of chopped pecans!!!!
     
    ChesterV, Aug 16, 2017
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  5. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about creating a candied pecan maple streusel to use as a filling, I hate that the cinnamon sugar butter just melts into the dough.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Aug 17, 2017
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  6. Norcalbaker59

    ChesterV Well-Known Member

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    Mmmmm, melting into the dough is the best part! But it also depends on the dough. If you dough is more of the type that forms a thin, tough outside layer while baking, it's not that bad. It makes for a slightly tougher roll, but its still good, and the filling doesn't completely melt into the dough.

    What I really like, besides the add-in's, is if you put a THICK layer of the cinnamon filling in it, it will stay, not melt into the dough, but you run the risk of it melting and running all over the bottom of the pan......which makes a nice gooey coating for the bottom of the rolls, which I like too.

    But I've made cinnamon rolls before where you have to get the thickness just right, where it doesn't melt into the dough or run to the bottom of the pan. If I remember correctly, I think I also mixed the cinnamon, sugar, and butter together, making a paste to spread onto the dough. And I only used enough sugar to keep the cinnamon from being bitter. I think I also added a bit of honey to the spread as well. The honey helped keep it all together, but it didn't really taste of honey. Of course then, if you bake it too long, you run the risk of the sugars turning to crystals. But some people like that.

    You might try putting the cinnamon, sugar, and butter into a processor and making a spreadable paste first. If I remember correctly, that always worked for me. I also put a final sprinkling of cinnamon powder over the spread before I rolled it up.

    Of course this much cinnamon is my taste, I'm sure not everybody likes that much.
     
    ChesterV, Aug 17, 2017
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  7. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I actually added a thick

    I tried it both ways using melted butter for one, a paste for the other. I ended using the paste and putting on 1/4" layer of the cinnamon butter. But it ended up in puddles at the bottom of the pan. There was still some between the rolls, but not a true filling. So that's why I'm thinking something like a streusel would work better. Msybe the addition of a little bit of flour will give it enough structure to stay put.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Aug 18, 2017
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  8. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I like the honey idea. That would add a really nice flavor.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Aug 18, 2017
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  9. Norcalbaker59

    ChesterV Well-Known Member

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    The paste I made for spreading was pretty much cinnamon powder. I added just enough sugar so it wouldn't be bitter, added a bit of honey for sweetness/but not too sweet, and just enough melted butter to make it spreadable.
    It makes it thick and a bit hard to spread, but it ends up being thick enough to stay in place without melting out......for me anyway. Then I sprinkled on more powdered cinnamon on top, once its spread out.

    You can always spread more butter on top of the rolls once they are in the pan.......before and after baking.

    You can use a sweet dough also, if you like sweet cinnamon rolls, helps with using less sugar in the cinnamon spread.

    You can use a honey butter or sugar butter to spread on top before putting on the icing too.

    If you want to sure it up, instead of adding flour, you might try some egg whites. Maybe one, from one large egg per batch of spread. That should firm it up without getting that gummy texture you might get by adding flour to it.

    There's also an assortment of veggie protein powders you can use as well....although some of them can taste funny. Rice powder would probably be the one I pick, as it is pretty much flavorless. Tofu powder would be my next experiment with that.
     
    ChesterV, Aug 20, 2017
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  10. Norcalbaker59

    Abriella Daie New Member

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    seems like a great technique.gotta try this one out.
     
    Abriella Daie, Sep 1, 2017
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  11. Norcalbaker59

    Judith New Member

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    Hello

    just discovered the thanzong method and would love to try it.
    I get the 1-5 ratio but i dont understand how much thanzong i need to make for let's say a batch of 5lbs?
    whats the ratio of thanzong- flour.
    i hope i make sense.
    I saw a recipe with 350 g of flour calling for a 25g-125g water.
    but how much thanzong should i make for a 1lb batch, a 2lb...
    i typically bake big batches
     
    Judith, Aug 6, 2018
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  12. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Judith,

    The amount of tangzhong varies depending on the type of flour you use. Flours with higher levels of protein can absorb more liquid than lower protein flour. Also unbleached flour will absorb more liquid than bleached flour. Since tangzhong alters how flour absorbs liquid, you need to test the recipe.

    First convert the original recipe and test it to find out how much tangzhong you need.


    Typically tangzhong is 15% - 20% of your total dough weight.

    It’s doesn’t matter if you’re making 1 pound of dough or 20 pounds of dough, the tangzhong will always be 15% - 20% of the total weight of you dough.


    Let’s say this is your original recipe and you want to use 20% tangzhong.


    335g flour

    236g liquid

    63 g butter

    52 g egg

    28 g sugar

    6 g salt

    5 g active dry yeast

    ________

    725g total dough weight


    Multiply total dough weight 725 by .20.


    725 x .20 = 145


    So 145 grams of tangzhong is needed.


    Tangzhong is 5 parts water and 1 part flour. So it’s made up of 6 parts.


    So divide the 145g by 6 parts to determine the amount of flour and water to use for the tangzhong.


    145 / 6 = 24.16


    24 is 1 part. The flour is 24 g


    145 - 24 = 121


    121 is 5 parts. The water is 121 g.


    So the Tangzhong is made with

    24 g flour (1 part)

    121 g water (5 parts)


    Now you have to subtract the flour and water used in the tangzhong from the original amount of water and flour.


    The original recipe called for:

    335 g of flour

    236g liquid


    Subtract

    335 - 24 = 311 g flour for main dough


    236 - 121 = 115 g liquid for the main dough

    You go through the same process whether your total weight is 725 g or 2000 grams. But you have to determine the how much tangzhong works best with your recipe before you scale up.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Aug 7, 2018
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  13. Norcalbaker59

    Apocalypso Well-Known Member

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    Oh, wow, I just now realized I misinterpreted the instructions I read last year. I thought I'd simply take 20% of the flour by weight out and add 5x the weight of the flour in liquid subtracted from the liquid total. I did do it that way, it worked, but probably wasn't as precise as it should be. :)
     
    Apocalypso, Aug 17, 2018 at 6:36 PM
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  14. Norcalbaker59

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    @Apocalypso, the approach you used still works as it keeps the ratio of flour to hydration the same. You also know the exact amounts of flour and hydration, which is key.

    I use the total dough weight because the first tangzhong method recipe that made its way into western baking was imprecise and written for a bread machine.

    That recipe called for creating a tangzhong, then measuring out a portion of it for use in the bread, then discarding the rest. With that approach you could not determine the percentage of tangzhoing to total dough or, more important, the total amount of flour and water in the recipe. Without knowing those ratios, the recipe could not be scaled. It also made it impossible to convert a recipe to tangzhong.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:16 PM
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