Dacquoise vs Japonais

[Pastrylove]

Hi everyone,
What is the difference between a dacquoise and a japonaise? There seems to be different answers everywhere eg, one only uses hazelnut or almond meal.
Thanks !

 

[Cahoot]

Funnily enough I've also been wondering about this! From my research googling it and my pastry textbooks:

This ChefTalk thread suggests that historically:

• Dacquoise = hazelnuts
• Succès = almonds
• Progrès = 50/50 almonds and hazelnuts
• Japonaise = lower ratio of sugar to egg whites

This site however says that

• Dacquoise = almonds
• Succès = hazelnuts

Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michel Suas has a Hazelnut Japonaise recipe with equal parts egg whites, granulated sugar, powdered sugar, and hazelnut meal. It also has a Dacquoise recipe with the ratios:
80% almond meal
80% powdered sugar
100% egg whites
32% (granulated) sugar

Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen has a Japonaise recipe exactly the same as the Michel Suas one, but it lists "hazelnuts or almonds" for the nut. It also has a Coconut Dacquoise recipe where almonds are used and the ratio of other ingredients (nuts, powdered sugar, and powdered sugar) to egg whites is lower, and a Succès recipe that uses almonds and the ratio of other ingredients of other ingredients to egg whites is 67%. Additionally, both the Dacquoise and Succès recipes include flour.

The Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg says "A fourth [type of baked meringue], Japonaise, is a French meringue with the addition of almond meal and a small amount of cornstarch." No powdered sugar is used in his formula.

Baking and Pastry by the Culinary Institute of America has multiple dacquoise formulas, that all use almonds other than the one specified "Hazelnut Dacquoise", but all with different ratios of ingredients.

On Baking by Sarah Labensky has a Dacquoise formula that lists "almonds, hazelnuts, or a combination", and a Succès formula that lists the same for the nut used, but has a lower ratio of sugar. Both don't use powdered sugar, but have flour. The Succès formula uses a higher ratio of flour.

So from what I've found, there doesn't seem to be a consistent distinction in terms of the nuts used nor the ratios. I'm wondering if anyone has a more authoritative source on the actual difference between all the baked nut meringues, or even the historical differences. Pastry terminology can be very confusing and inconsistent but it's something I try to get figured out in an organized maner whenever possible.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Funnily enough I've also been wondering about this! From my research googling it and my pastry textbooks:

This ChefTalk thread suggests that historically:

• Dacquoise = hazelnuts
• Succès = almonds
• Progrès = 50/50 almonds and hazelnuts
• Japonaise = lower ratio of sugar to egg whites

This site however says that

• Dacquoise = almonds
• Succès = hazelnuts

Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michel Suas has a Hazelnut Japonaise recipe with equal parts egg whites, granulated sugar, powdered sugar, and hazelnut meal. It also has a Dacquoise recipe with the ratios:
80% almond meal
80% powdered sugar
100% egg whites
32% (granulated) sugar

Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen has a Japonaise recipe exactly the same as the Michel Suas one, but it lists "hazelnuts or almonds" for the nut. It also has a Coconut Dacquoise recipe where almonds are used and the ratio of other ingredients (nuts, powdered sugar, and powdered sugar) to egg whites is lower, and a Succès recipe that uses almonds and the ratio of other ingredients of other ingredients to egg whites is 67%. Additionally, both the Dacquoise and Succès recipes include flour.

The Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg says "A fourth [type of baked meringue], Japonaise, is a French meringue with the addition of almond meal and a small amount of cornstarch." No powdered sugar is used in his formula.

Baking and Pastry by the Culinary Institute of America has multiple dacquoise formulas, that all use almonds other than the one specified "Hazelnut Dacquoise", but all with different ratios of ingredients.

On Baking by Sarah Labensky has a Dacquoise formula that lists "almonds, hazelnuts, or a combination", and a Succès formula that lists the same for the nut used, but has a lower ratio of sugar. Both don't use powdered sugar, but have flour. The Succès formula uses a higher ratio of flour.

So from what I've found, there doesn't seem to be a consistent distinction in terms of the nuts used nor the ratios. I'm wondering if anyone has a more authoritative source on the actual difference between all the baked nut meringues, or even the historical differences. Pastry terminology can be very confusing and inconsistent but it's something I try to get figured out in an organized maner whenever possible.

I’ve been taught in baking classes, and I’ve never had a Japanois mentioned in a baking class. So I did a quick search starting with Larousse Gastronomique.

Larousse Gastronomique is the encyclopedia of French cuisine. Larousse is considered to be the most reliable source for French and western food information. It was first published over 80 years ago and included only descriptions and information of French food and ingredients. It was over 1000 pgs and the original book did not include any recipes, only information on French and western cuisine, ingredients, and cooking techniques.

Larousse’s entries for dacquoise includes both almond and hazelnuts.


https://archive.org/details/DictionnaireLarousseGastronomique/page/n379/mode/2up?q=dacquoise



https://archive.org/details/DictionnaireLarousseGastronomique/page/n119/mode/2up?q=dacquoise



There is no entry for Japonais, only Japonaise in Larousse. And there is no Japonais entry in the section on Biscuits. Since the French have documented the origins of the dacquoise, there is evidence of the use of both almonds and hazelnuts in their encyclopedia of cuisine, and there is no evidence of their uses of the term Japonais for a dacquoise, it would seem the term Japonais was most likely created by non French bakers.

Being of Japanese ancestry, the term is wholly illogical to me since meringue, almonds, and hazelnuts have no connection to Japan. In fact all things baking are a foreign introduction into the Japanese culture, not vise versa.

https://archive.org/details/DictionnaireLarousseGastronomique/page/n589/mode/2up

I checked my 1980 copy of Jacques Pepin’s La Technique, Pierre Herme’s Pastries, Michel Suas’ Advanced Bread and Pastry, Konemann’s Pastries (a collection of Europe’s Master Pastry Chefs) and Julia Child’s How to Cook. All of French chefs including Childs are classically trained. The books all include a dacquoise, all mention dacquoise with almonds and hazelnuts or other nuts, but not a single one of these books even mentions a Japonais, let alone provide a recipe/formula for one.

If Japonais is not listed in Larousse Gastronomique and the most noted classically trained French chefs don’t even acknowledge its existence, and if French bakers/chefs have been using almonds and hazelnuts in dacquoise since day one, there probably is no such thing as Japonais. Instead, some non-French bakers out there just call dacquoise by the wrong name.

 

[Pastrylove]

Funnily enough I've also been wondering about this! From my research googling it and my pastry textbooks:

This ChefTalk thread suggests that historically:

• Dacquoise = hazelnuts
• Succès = almonds
• Progrès = 50/50 almonds and hazelnuts
• Japonaise = lower ratio of sugar to egg whites

This site however says that

• Dacquoise = almonds
• Succès = hazelnuts

Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michel Suas has a Hazelnut Japonaise recipe with equal parts egg whites, granulated sugar, powdered sugar, and hazelnut meal. It also has a Dacquoise recipe with the ratios:
80% almond meal
80% powdered sugar
100% egg whites
32% (granulated) sugar

Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen has a Japonaise recipe exactly the same as the Michel Suas one, but it lists "hazelnuts or almonds" for the nut. It also has a Coconut Dacquoise recipe where almonds are used and the ratio of other ingredients (nuts, powdered sugar, and powdered sugar) to egg whites is lower, and a Succès recipe that uses almonds and the ratio of other ingredients of other ingredients to egg whites is 67%. Additionally, both the Dacquoise and Succès recipes include flour.

The Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg says "A fourth [type of baked meringue], Japonaise, is a French meringue with the addition of almond meal and a small amount of cornstarch." No powdered sugar is used in his formula.

Baking and Pastry by the Culinary Institute of America has multiple dacquoise formulas, that all use almonds other than the one specified "Hazelnut Dacquoise", but all with different ratios of ingredients.

On Baking by Sarah Labensky has a Dacquoise formula that lists "almonds, hazelnuts, or a combination", and a Succès formula that lists the same for the nut used, but has a lower ratio of sugar. Both don't use powdered sugar, but have flour. The Succès formula uses a higher ratio of flour.

So from what I've found, there doesn't seem to be a consistent distinction in terms of the nuts used nor the ratios. I'm wondering if anyone has a more authoritative source on the actual difference between all the baked nut meringues, or even the historical differences. Pastry terminology can be very confusing and inconsistent but it's something I try to get figured out in an organized maner whenever possible.

Thank you very much appreciate all the info, if only there was a clear difference between the 2 ! Thanks!!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you very much appreciate all the info, if only there was a clear difference between the 2 ! Thanks!!

Since there doesn’t seem to be any such thing as Japonais in French patisserie, really I wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[Pastrylove]

Funnily enough I've also been wondering about this! From my research googling it and my pastry textbooks:

This ChefTalk thread suggests that historically:

• Dacquoise = hazelnuts
• Succès = almonds
• Progrès = 50/50 almonds and hazelnuts
• Japonaise = lower ratio of sugar to egg whites

This site however says that

• Dacquoise = almonds
• Succès = hazelnuts

Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michel Suas has a Hazelnut Japonaise recipe with equal parts egg whites, granulated sugar, powdered sugar, and hazelnut meal. It also has a Dacquoise recipe with the ratios:
80% almond meal
80% powdered sugar
100% egg whites
32% (granulated) sugar

Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen has a Japonaise recipe exactly the same as the Michel Suas one, but it lists "hazelnuts or almonds" for the nut. It also has a Coconut Dacquoise recipe where almonds are used and the ratio of other ingredients (nuts, powdered sugar, and powdered sugar) to egg whites is lower, and a Succès recipe that uses almonds and the ratio of other ingredients of other ingredients to egg whites is 67%. Additionally, both the Dacquoise and Succès recipes include flour.

The Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg says "A fourth [type of baked meringue], Japonaise, is a French meringue with the addition of almond meal and a small amount of cornstarch." No powdered sugar is used in his formula.

Baking and Pastry by the Culinary Institute of America has multiple dacquoise formulas, that all use almonds other than the one specified "Hazelnut Dacquoise", but all with different ratios of ingredients.

On Baking by Sarah Labensky has a Dacquoise formula that lists "almonds, hazelnuts, or a combination", and a Succès formula that lists the same for the nut used, but has a lower ratio of sugar. Both don't use powdered sugar, but have flour. The Succès formula uses a higher ratio of flour.

So from what I've found, there doesn't seem to be a consistent distinction in terms of the nuts used nor the ratios. I'm wondering if anyone has a more authoritative source on the actual difference between all the baked nut meringues, or even the historical differences. Pastry terminology can be very confusing and inconsistent but it's something I try to get figured out in an organized maner whenever possible.

Thank you very much appreciate all the info, if only there was a clear difference between the 2 ! Thanks!!

Since there doesn’t seem to be any such thing as Japonais in French patisserie, really I wouldn’t worry about it.

Thanks im not worried about it just a bit of a pastry nerd !!

 

[retired baker]

Hi everyone,
What is the difference between a dacquoise and a japonaise? There seems to be different answers everywhere eg, one only uses hazelnut or almond meal.
Thanks !

regional traditions, I think japonaise originated in India, not Japan.
It all depends on the final product, if you wanted a molded mouse cake you'd be better off using a dried meringue style.
If you want to fill with buttercream you may want a version with flour that stays spongy..
Theres also a russian version that uses milk.
Dacquise came from the city of Dax in Bergundy.
Dijonaise from Dijon
Pate a fonds de Russe is russian style.
The russian style stays soft without having to use wheat flour.