Fruit cremeux

[Cahoot]

I found a table for fruit cremeux recipes from Boiron, and it calls for bringing all ingredients except the butter and gelatin to a boil. I thought this was interesting, since a regular crème anglaise is only cooked to about 180°F (82°C), max 185° (85°C). So I'm wondering how come these recipes call for bringing to a boil instead.

Paula Figoni's How Baking Works offers a possible explanation for why this is possible "Dairy proteins also likely interact with egg proteins, firming up the gel. Imagine egg custard made with water instead of milk. The custard would be very soft and barely set." So my theory is by replacing the dairy with fruit puree, removing the dairy proteins is enough to allow the mixture to boil without coagulating. But I've no idea if I'm correct or not.

For reference if anyone's interested, the table can be downloaded from their website (scroll down and select the "Download our basic preparations for pastry chefs" option), or I took a screenshot of part of the table:

Some other questions I had were:
1) How come some preparations (such as this one) call for bringing everything up to a boil together, instead of the traditional method of heating the liquid first and tempering the eggs?

2) Later in that document, they say "To fill eclairs, we recommend using the cremeux or two fillings: macaroon compote 1/3 – vanilla pastry cream 2/3." Why isn't pastry cream recommended? For cremeux, I can guess that its freezability makes it more flexible in commercial kitchens than pastry cream. A wild guess for recommending compote + vanilla pastry cream instead of a pastry cream made from puree is that you lose the richness from the milk, but they also include milk powder for some of the pastry cream recipes, which I figured would make up for any loss of dairy richness.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Cahoot
Is there a starch in the recipe? A starch like cornstarch, not dairy would act as the buffer to prevent curdling.

When making a custard. slow heating and the sugar and the water in the milk slow the protein denaturation. It’s not the milk protein. But too far above 180°F (82°C) and the egg will begin to curdle. A starch with act as a buffer though. IDK, maybe a lot more sugar, but I’m not sure.

Certainly 180°F (82°C) is sufficient to set a custard or any egg based cream.


Insofar as stirring everything together or not, it’s just about ingredients and cooking methods. Cooking everything on the stovetop together just allows for the mixture to be brought to a high temperature before being baked or steamed or however it’s finished. Cooking all together has it’s risk because you can curdle the egg. Cooking them separately mitigates from curdling the egg. It’s just a preference thing more than anything else.

I think the recommendation on the eclair fillings is so they aren’t so mundane. Use of milk powder may seem odd, but milk powder in commercial pastry is not the same as the milk powder purchased in retail stores. They are not to make reconstituted milk. The proteins are used as an emulsifier, so they create better mouthfeel, but not anything flavor or richness. You can read about milk powders on the BakerPedia site.

https://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/non-fat-dried-milk-nfdm/

 

[Cahoot]

@Cahoot
Is there a starch in the recipe? A starch like cornstarch, not dairy would act as the buffer to prevent curdling.

When making a custard. slow heating and the sugar and the water in the milk slow the protein denaturation. It’s not the milk protein. But too far above 180°F (82°C) and the egg will begin to curdle. A starch with act as a buffer though. IDK, maybe a lot more sugar, but I’m not sure.

Certainly 180°F (82°C) is sufficient to set a custard or any egg based cream.


Insofar as stirring everything together or not, it’s just about ingredients and cooking methods. Cooking everything on the stovetop together just allows for the mixture to be brought to a high temperature before being baked or steamed or however it’s finished. Cooking all together has it’s risk because you can curdle the egg. Cooking them separately mitigates from curdling the egg. It’s just a preference thing more than anything else.

I think the recommendation on the eclair fillings is so they aren’t so mundane. Use of milk powder may seem odd, but milk powder in commercial pastry is not the same as the milk powder purchased in retail stores. They are not to make reconstituted milk. The proteins are used as an emulsifier, so they create better mouthfeel, but not anything flavor or richness. You can read about milk powders on the BakerPedia site.

https://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/non-fat-dried-milk-nfdm/

There's no starch in the recipes, they're essentially just crème anglaise + butter + gelatin, just with fruit purees used instead of milk/cream for the crème anglaise. The screenshot that I attached shows the entire formulas.

I was also thinking that maybe the formulas contain much more sugar than typical crème anglaise formulas which would help prevent from curdling, but that doesn't seem to be the case. You can see that for 1000g of puree, the sugar is usually in the 200-300g range, so 20-30%. Even if we take into consideration the fact that many purees are 90% fruit, 10% sugar, that's not an extraordinarily high amount of sugar since the formulas also contain minimum 600-700g egg yolks + whole eggs. So intuitively, it just seems like there's no way the eggs wouldn't curdle.

Regarding the cooking method, I thought it was interesting since for the pastry cream formulas, they do instruct you to temper the eggs, so I figured there must be a reason for why they don't do it for the cremeux. I can't see the advantage of cooking all the ingredients together, since the cremeux wouldn't be cooked further.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

There's no starch in the recipes, they're essentially just crème anglaise + butter + gelatin, just with fruit purees used instead of milk/cream for the crème anglaise. The screenshot that I attached shows the entire formulas.

I was also thinking that maybe the formulas contain much more sugar than typical crème anglaise formulas which would help prevent from curdling, but that doesn't seem to be the case. You can see that for 1000g of puree, the sugar is usually in the 200-300g range, so 20-30%. Even if we take into consideration the fact that many purees are 90% fruit, 10% sugar, that's not an extraordinarily high amount of sugar since the formulas also contain minimum 600-700g egg yolks + whole eggs. So intuitively, it just seems like there's no way the eggs wouldn't curdle.

Regarding the cooking method, I thought it was interesting since for the pastry cream formulas, they do instruct you to temper the eggs, so I figured there must be a reason for why they don't do it for the cremeux. I can't see the advantage of cooking all the ingredients together, since the cremeux wouldn't be cooked further.
View attachment 3199

I couldn’t read the chart because it was so small and my iphone wouldn’t zoom it. So I sent it over to my Ipad and blew it up.

Okay, so I’m confused, this chart has cornflour in this recipe—that’s the starch. But you don’t have to temper a custard. When making a custard, the worry is curdling. Tempering is a way to guard against curdling. But by adding a starch, you can also guard against curdling and also add more thickening. But you have to be careful becuase you have to cook the starch long enough to ensure full starch gelatinization. If you don’t retrogradation of the starch occurs and it will become watery again.

So what is retrogradation? There are two separate types of starch molecules, amylose and amylopectin. Each starch has its own unique long chain shape. The long chains are held together with hydrogen bonds.


During cooking, the starch molecules in the cornflour expand as starch absorbs more water. At a certain point they expand so much that the hydrogen bonds break apart. As more water replaces the hydrogen bonds, the long chain molecules of amylose and amylopectin begins to form a gel like mass. This is when the thickening property of starch begin to happen.


But as the starch cools, it forces the water out and the hydrogen bonds re-form. That process it is starch retrogradation.


So water is being forced out of the custard—or sauce, pastry cream, or even bread. The retrogradation of strarch is what causes bread to stale.

Notice in the instructions it states to cook for 2 mintues? Thats the key. The starch in the mixture prevents the egg from curdling and cooking the starch fully to starch gelatinization so retrogradation doesn’t occur—or at least not right away.

 

[Cahoot]

I couldn’t read the chart because it was so small and my iphone wouldn’t zoom it. So I sent it over to my Ipad and blew it up.

Okay, so I’m confused, this chart has cornflour in this recipe—that’s the starch. But you don’t have to temper a custard. When making a custard, the worry is curdling. Tempering is a way to guard against curdling. But by adding a starch, you can also guard against curdling and also add more thickening. But you have to be careful becuase you have to cook the starch long enough to ensure full starch gelatinization. If you don’t retrogradation of the starch occurs and it will become watery again.

So what is retrogradation? There are two separate types of starch molecules, amylose and amylopectin. Each starch has its own unique long chain shape. The long chains are held together with hydrogen bonds.


During cooking, the starch molecules in the cornflour expand as starch absorbs more water. At a certain point they expand so much that the hydrogen bonds break apart. As more water replaces the hydrogen bonds, the long chain molecules of amylose and amylopectin begins to form a gel like mass. This is when the thickening property of starch begin to happen.


But as the starch cools, it forces the water out and the hydrogen bonds re-form. That process it is starch retrogradation.


So water is being forced out of the custard—or sauce, pastry cream, or even bread. The retrogradation of strarch is what causes bread to stale.

Notice in the instructions it states to cook for 2 mintues? Thats the key. The starch in the mixture prevents the egg from curdling and cooking the starch fully to starch gelatinization so retrogradation doesn’t occur—or at least not right away.

Sorry I didn't make it clear. The chart I attached in my second post is for the pastry cream formulas, so cornstarch is included there. The chart in my first post is the cremeux formulas, without any starch and without any tempering.

As an aside, it's neat that you mentioned the name for the process that causes custards to become watery. I knew it had to do with not de-activating certain enzymes, but never knew what the exact process actually was.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Cahoot, hahaha, now that I can read the chart on my ipad, ok absence any added starch it is odd they bring the mixture to a boil. With a custard like cream anglaise where there is only the egg and butter, no added cornstarch, you heat to just over 165°F (74°C) because of the enzyme alpha-amylase in the egg. But when cornstarch is added, that changes the temperature requirements because starch gelatinzation and retrogradation are now in play. So you have to heat to 211°F (100°C) and cook for at least 2 minutes to bring that starch to full gelatinization.

Even with a gelatin sheet, it should dissolve without a full boil. IDK, maybe some one was worried about sanitation. People are under the misguided belief that we can kill all dangerous microbes at 140°F (60°F). But in fact microbes can survive at much higher temperatures. That is why food sterilization and canning standards requires bringing food to boiling temperature.

With the cremeux, you don’t have to temper the anglaise. But how they manage to take it to boiling without curdling is beyond me. So yeah, now I get why you are baffled by their recipe—it really doesn’t make sense. I wonder if it’s a typo.

 

[Cahoot]

@Cahoot, hahaha, now that I can read the chart on my ipad, ok absence any added starch it is odd they bring the mixture to a boil. With a custard like cream anglaise where there is only the egg and butter, no added cornstarch, you heat to just over 165°F (74°C) because of the enzyme alpha-amylase in the egg. But when cornstarch is added, that changes the temperature requirements because starch gelatinzation and retrogradation are now in play. So you have to heat to 211°F (100°C) and cook for at least 2 minutes to bring that starch to full gelatinization.

Even with a gelatin sheet, it should dissolve without a full boil. IDK, maybe some one was worried about sanitation. People are under the misguided belief that we can kill all dangerous microbes at 140°F (60°F). But in fact microbes can survive at much higher temperatures. That is why food sterilization and canning standards requires bringing food to boiling temperature.

With the cremeux, you don’t have to temper the anglaise. But how they manage to take it to boiling without curdling is beyond me. So yeah, now I get why you are baffled by their recipe—it really doesn’t make sense. I wonder if it’s a typo.

Doing some research on this subject, I also found another recipe from Callebaut for a yuzu cremeux that also instructs to bring all ingredients except butter/gelatin to a boil: https://www.callebaut.com/en-OC/chocolate-recipe/1357/yuzu-and-white-chocolate-cream-cake

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any more information on this question. People still seem to have success doing it this way without having the entire thing curdle, and just straining out any small bits at the end, but I can't find an answer as to why these fruit cremeux recipes are done this way.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Doing some research on this subject, I also found another recipe from Callebaut for a yuzu cremeux that also instructs to bring all ingredients except butter/gelatin to a boil: https://www.callebaut.com/en-OC/chocolate-recipe/1357/yuzu-and-white-chocolate-cream-cake

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any more information on this question. People still seem to have success doing it this way without having the entire thing curdle, and just straining out any small bits at the end, but I can't find an answer as to why these fruit cremeux recipes are done this way.

that’s interesting. I’m out right now, but look up cremeux In Suas’ book. it should be in the section with creme anglaise and buttercreams following the cake section I think.

It’s basically a water-based mousse with all the juice. So I don’t know if all of sugar and water keeps the egg from curdling. With a traditional mousse you can make a boiled sugar syrup and pour it into into whipped whole eggs, similar to what you do when you do Italian meringue. So I don’t know if boiling the juice and sugar is the key here.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Kind of reviewing what I understand the differences between the custards to be:

• crème anglaise = milk/cream + egg yolks - it is distinguished from a pastry cream in that no starch is every used

• cremeux = crème anglaise + base of many types can be used + gelatin

• mousse = base + whipped cream/meringue + stabilizer

What Suas’ book says about cremeux:

“Cremeux translates to “creamy.”. as a pastry item, it refers to a crème anglaise-style custard that has been thickened with butter and sometimes gelatin. The flavor options for cremeux are plentiful and include chocolate, fruit purée, nut paste, and caramel. Cremeux fillings can be used as the fillings for a tart or as an insert for mousse cake.”​

It dawned on my when I looked at the Callebaut recipe that the fruit cremeux recipes are essentially water based mousses. Seeing it side by side with a mousse I realized it is a mousse, but made with water instead of milk/cream. I’m wondering if that is why it’s boiled. I really don’t know, but I sure am curious now.

The cremeux recipe in Suas’ book the crème anglaise base is cooked at 180°F (82°C); the gelatin added while hot; the mixture cooled and the butter added 86°F (30°C) - 95°F (35°C).

 

[Cahoot]

Kind of reviewing what I understand the differences between the custards to be:

• crème anglaise = milk/cream + egg yolks - it is distinguished from a pastry cream in that no starch is every used

• cremeux = crème anglaise + base of many types can be used + gelatin

• mousse = base + whipped cream/meringue + stabilizer

What Suas’ book says about cremeux:

“Cremeux translates to “creamy.”. as a pastry item, it refers to a crème anglaise-style custard that has been thickened with butter and sometimes gelatin. The flavor options for cremeux are plentiful and include chocolate, fruit purée, nut paste, and caramel. Cremeux fillings can be used as the fillings for a tart or as an insert for mousse cake.”​

It dawned on my when I looked at the Callebaut recipe that the fruit cremeux recipes are essentially water based mousses. Seeing it side by side with a mousse I realized it is a mousse, but made with water instead of milk/cream. I’m wondering if that is why it’s boiled. I really don’t know, but I sure am curious now.

The cremeux recipe in Suas’ book the crème anglaise base is cooked at 180°F (82°C); the gelatin added while hot; the mixture cooled and the butter added 86°F (30°C) - 95°F (35°C).

Why do you say that the fruit cremeux recipes are essentially mousses? As far as I understand, what usually differentiates cremeux from mousses (of course, the definitions for each are a bit loose and there are multiple ways to prepare them) is that a mousse has an egg foam (meringue or pate a bombe) and/or whipped cream folded into the base.

The cremeux recipes from Boiron or Callebaute don't have anything folded into the creme anglaise mixture to lighten them, just gelatin and butter added afterwards. So really they're actually pretty similar to the formulas in the Suas book, with the exception of boiling the mixture.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Why do you say that the fruit cremeux recipes are essentially mousses? As far as I understand, what usually differentiates cremeux from mousses (of course, the definitions for each are a bit loose and there are multiple ways to prepare them) is that a mousse has an egg foam (meringue or pate a bombe) and/or whipped cream folded into the base.

The cremeux recipes from Boiron or Callebaute don't have anything folded into the creme anglaise mixture to lighten them, just gelatin and butter added afterwards. So really they're actually pretty similar to the formulas in the Suas book, with the exception of boiling the mixture.

I did some more research on cremeux. The high temperature is to ensure the gelatin is fully dissolved.

Creameux and mousse share some of the same bases: chocolate and diary; fruit curd, custard or cream anglaise. Both can be creamy and dense. While mousse is aerated with whipped cream, meringue, egg whites, or egg yolks, cremeux can be whipped too. Whipped creameux is frequently used in entremets, but you can eat it like a pudding. Stella Parks has a whipped chocolate cremeux.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/recipes/chocolate-almost-mousse/16841/

 

[Cahoot]

I did some more research on cremeux. The high temperature is to ensure the gelatin is fully dissolved.

Creameux and mousse share some of the same bases: chocolate and diary; fruit curd, custard or cream anglaise. Both can be creamy and dense. While mousse is aerated with whipped cream, meringue, egg whites, or egg yolks, cremeux can be whipped too. Whipped creameux is frequently used in entremets, but you can eat it like a pudding. Stella Parks has a whipped chocolate cremeux.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/recipes/chocolate-almost-mousse/16841/

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought that you needed that high of a temperature to dissolve gelatin. But I've never worked with sheet gelatin, only the powdered stuff.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought that you needed that high of a temperature to dissolve gelatin. But I've never worked with sheet gelatin, only the powdered stuff.

Sorry I was in really late last night, and answer a couple of other questions so I didn’t fully explain because I was really tired.





Gelatin actually doesn’t need that high of a temperature, but agar which is also a common thickener used in cremeux requires a higher temperature. Gelatin only requires a temperature of about 100°F (37°C). But agar requires a temperature of about 180°F (82°C).


It’s really about shearing force.

Agar is a hydrocolloid, which is essentially a big molecule that will interact with water. It’s known as a shearing gel.

Shear force refers to the force in which parallel objects move in opposite directions, like the blades of a scissor cutting or razor blades shaving.

In cooking, shear force is produced when we stir or we use a blender or mixer.

Water is a non-Newtonian fluid because is has the same viscosity regardless of how fast/hard it is stirred.

Hydrocolloids have non-Newtonian characteristics but will get thinner as they are stirred. As they are stirred the molecules will align themselves into a plane, this will cause the solution to thin out. The more vigorously the shear force, the thinner it becomes.

Agar’s consistency will also be determined by how long it is boiled. If it’s under boiled, it will produce a softer set. If it’s boiled longer it will produce a much more solid set.

But how the mixing is done is also important. The immersion blender should be fully immersed so no air is incorporated into the mixture. It should be done on a lower speed so the sheer force is done slowly.

You want the mixture hot while shearing with both gelatin and agar because they’re fluid while hot but start to solidify as soon as they begin to cool.