How does Agar affect Buttercream?

[RachelB]

I live in the Southern United States where it is hot and humid in the summer. I have tried buttercream recipes that use meringue powder to promote stability, but someone on Facebook told me recently to replace the meringue powder with agar because it would produce a thicker and firmer buttercream. Is that true? If so, is the substitution 1:1 ratio? I have been reading about agar, and I get more confused the more I read. Do you have to boil it in water and let it set before using it? If it can be used instead of meringue powder in buttercream, how would I use it and in what amount per cups of buttercream? Thanks.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I don’t know where people come up with this kind of stuff.

Meringue powder is dehydrated egg whites.

Albumen (Egg white): expand 8x original volume

• 0% fat
• 88% water
• 11% protein

Lower protein and high water content in egg white makes the protein less stable. High water content allows whisk to easily drag across surface creating force to easily unfurl proteins.

Egg powder is mixed with water to rehydrate it.

A meringue is a foam; a foam is lots of air bubbles suspended in the water of the egg whites, held together with a network of the protein in the egg whites.

Agar is a gelatinous thickener made from seaweed. There is no water in agar to suspend air bubbles. Agar in fact absorbs water, so instead of creating a foam it will create a thick heavy mass.

 

[RachelB]

I don’t know where people come up with this kind of stuff.

Meringue powder is dehydrated egg whites.

Albumen (Egg white): expand 8x original volume

• 0% fat
• 88% water
• 11% protein

Lower protein and high water content in egg white makes the protein less stable. High water content allows whisk to easily drag across surface creating force to easily unfurl proteins.

Egg powder is mixed with water to rehydrate it.

A meringue is a foam; a foam is lots of air bubbles suspended in the water of the egg whites, held together with a network of the protein in the egg whites.

Agar is a gelatinous thickener made from seaweed. There is no water in agar to suspend air bubbles. Agar in fact absorbs water, so instead of creating a foam it will create a thick heavy mass.

Thank you. I will stay away from it.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you. I will stay away from it.

Just think of agar like a gelatin. Use it in applications where a thickener like gelatin is normally used--except when you need a thermoreversible gel (one that thickens then can be reheated; melted; added to mixture). Then NH pectin is a better choice.

In humid environments, the best you can do is use a dehumidifier and control the temperature in the kitchen when preparing and working with meringue buttercream.

These buttercreams are superior in texture and flavor to powdered sugar and shortening (or butter/shortening blend), but they are temperature sensitive.

 

[RachelB]

Just think of agar like a gelatin. Use it in applications where a thickener like gelatin is normally used--except when you need a thermoreversible gel (one that thickens then can be reheated; melted; added to mixture). Then NH pectin is a better choice.

In humid environments, the best you can do is use a dehumidifier and control the temperature in the kitchen when preparing and working with meringue buttercream.

These buttercreams are superior in texture and flavor to powdered sugar and shortening (or butter/shortening blend), but they are temperature sensitive.

Thank you. I tried Italian Meringue Buttercream for the first time, and it is the best buttercream I have ever tasted. I usually like very sweet American Buttercream, but it won me over.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you. I tried Italian Meringue Buttercream for the first time, and it is the best buttercream I have ever tasted. I usually like very sweet American Buttercream, but it won me over.

Have you tried mascarpone chantilly icing? it’s a combination of mascarpone cheese and whipping cream. It’s one of my favorites, if I don’t use the Italian meringue I use the mascarpone chantilly icing.

If you haven’t tried it and would like a recipe let me know and I’ll post something for you.

It's firm enough to pipe, but it’s lighter and fluffier than meringue buttercream. It goes beautifully with chiffon cakes; cakes with fruit fillings. It's whiter, so good when you need a brighter cake without the slight yellow that butter gives meringue buttercream.

Or add chocolate and it balances nicely against chocolate cake and sweeter cakes since its lighter and sweet.

Mascarpone Chantilly note how fluffy it is compared to to meringue buttercream. It is more heat sensitive though.

Meringue buttercream

 

[RachelB]

Have you tried mascarpone chantilly icing? it’s a combination of mascarpone cheese and whipping cream. It’s one of my favorites, if I don’t use the Italian meringue I use the mascarpone chantilly icing.

If you haven’t tried it and would like a recipe let me know and I’ll post something for you.

It's firm enough to pipe, but it’s lighter and fluffier than meringue buttercream. It goes beautifully with chiffon cakes; cakes with fruit fillings. It's whiter, so good when you need a brighter cake without the slight yellow that butter gives meringue buttercream.

Or add chocolate and it balances nicely against chocolate cake and sweeter cakes since its lighter and sweet.

Mascarpone Chantilly note how fluffy it is compared to to meringue buttercream. It is more heat sensitive though.
View attachment 4602



Meringue buttercream
View attachment 4603

I have not tried it, but I would love the recipe. Thank you so much! It sounds delicious and looks beautiful. I do have one more question about Italian Meringue Buttercream. It held up very well, but something weird happened, though. Every time I cut a piece of cake, the buttercream fell off the side of it the cake and onto the plate. Do you have any idea why that happened?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I have not tried it, but I would love the recipe. Thank you so much! It sounds delicious and looks beautiful. I do have one more question about Italian Meringue Buttercream. It held up very well, but something weird happened, though. Every time I cut a piece of cake, the buttercream fell off the side of it the cake and onto the plate. Do you have any idea why that happened?

The butter in the Italian Meringue and Swiss Meringue buttercreams will harden when chilled. These buttercreams need to be left at room temperature for about 45 minutes before cutting and serving. If you cut it cold, like butter it will break,

.
The pink and purple Italian buttercream on the top of this cake is inlay. I placed the cake in the freezer for a while to get the butter to really harden. I heated a metal cookie cutter, then pressed it into the buttercream, taking care not to cut into the cake. I then carved out the shape, re-chilled it, then filled in the shape with a different color Italian meringue buttercream. It’s a way to add decorations without piping. And it is unique looking as it is inlay.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

The process is over two days, but the actual effort and time are minimal. Day 1 the gelatin and cream mixture is made and mixed into the mascarpone cheese and cream base and then chilled overnight. Day 2 the mixture is whipped into the icing.







Mascarpone Chantilly


Standard batch

600 g 35% fat heavy whipping cream

divided​

• 100g
• 500g

1 vanilla bean or 1 tsp vanilla paste

1/2 tsp almond extract (optional, but I like it when not adding chocolate)

100g baker’s CANE sugar

7g gelatine sheets

300g mascarpone cheese (good quality)

170g - 226g chopped chocolate (optional)



============



Large batch

800g 35% fat heavy whipping cream

divided​

• 160g
• 640g

12g (5.5 sheets) gelatin sheets*

1 vanilla bean or 1 1/2 tsp vanilla paste

3/4 tsp almond extract (optional, but I like it when not adding chocolate)

450g mascarpone cheese (good quality)

160g baker’s CANE sugar

170g - 226g chopped chocolate (optional)


Equipment:

Day 1

• Bowl for gelatin sheets
• Saucepan
• Whisk
• Mixer with whisk attchment
• Bowl to chill mixture overnigh
• Plastic Wrap

Day 2

• Mixer with whisk attachment
• Heat proof bowl fitted over saucepan to melt chocolate if using
• Heat proof spatula

STEP 1

Soak the gelatine sheets in a bowl filled with cold water. After sheets are softened, remove them from the water and squeeze out excess water.



STEP 2

Place 100 grams of heavy whipping cream, the baker’s sugar, and seeds from the vanilla pod in a saucepan.

Whisk slowly over medium-high and heat until it JUST reaches boiling temperature. But DO NOT let it boil hard. Reduce the heat to the lowest setting.

Add the drained and squeezed out gelatin sheets to the cream mixture.

Gently whisk until the gelatin is completely dissolved. Set aside to cool.



STEP 3

In a mixer bowl combine mascarpone and 500 ml heavy whipping cream


With the whisk attachment mix on low to combine well. DO NOT WHIP THE MIXTURE, JUST MIX TO COMBINE.

Add the cooled gelatine cream mixture and mix on LOW for about 2 minutes to combine. Again, DO NOT WHIP THE MIXTURE, JUST MIX TO COMBINE. The mixture should NOT be fluffy.



STEP 4

Transfer mixture to a bowl. Place cling wrap DIRECTLY on the surface of the mixture to prevent a skin from forming on the surface.

Chill overnight



====================

Day 2



STEP 5

If using chocolate: place chopped chocolate in heat proof bowl; set over saucepan with simmering water. Stir with spatula until chocolate melts. Set aside to cool.

STEP 6

Transfer the mixture into the mixer bowl.

Beat on med-high until light and fluffy

STEP 7

May add up to 60 g sifted powered CANE sugar after whipping if a sweeter icing is desired. I do not recommend if adding chocolate.

Fold in 6 - 8 oz melted AND cooled chocolate





=============================



*Gelatin sheets are rated by bloom. The bloom is given a number. The higher the bloom number, the greater the get strength AND clarity. However, you do not have to calculate the amount to adjust for strength, as each sheet has been weighed so they all have the same gel strength.

• titanium 120 Bloom; 5 g per sheet
• bronze 140 Bloom; 3.5 g per sheet
• silver 160 Bloom; 2.5g per sheet
• gold 200 Bloom; 2 g per sheet
• platinum 230 Bloom; 175g per sheet

Note that platinum sheets only weighs 175g each, and all the other sheets weigh more. Yet platinum sheets have the same gel strength as all the other sheets since all gelatin sheets are weighted. So when using gelatin sheets, just weigh out the amount stated in the recipe.
Silver is the most commonly used gelatin sheet by pastry chefs. But it's fine to use bronze or less in applications where clarity is not an issue. When a lot of clarity is needed, gold or platinum should be used.



Where to buy gelatin sheets



https://modernistpantry.com/shop/?search_query=gelatin+sheets

 

[RachelB]

The butter in the Italian Meringue and Swiss Meringue buttercreams will harden when chilled. These buttercreams need to be left at room temperature for about 45 minutes before cutting and serving. If you cut it cold, like butter it will break,

.
The pink and purple Italian buttercream on the top of this cake is inlay. I placed the cake in the freezer for a while to get the butter to really harden. I heated a metal cookie cutter, then pressed it into the buttercream, taking care not to cut into the cake. I then carved out the shape, re-chilled it, then filled in the shape with a different color Italian meringue buttercream. It’s a way to add decorations without piping. And it is unique looking as it is inlay.

View attachment 4606

That cake is beautiful and looks so delicious! For my Italian Meringue Buttercream, I cut it at room temperature and it still fell off. I never cut it when it was cold. I am just worried that if I make a cake for someone with it that it will do the same thing.

 

[RachelB]

The process is over two days, but the actual effort and time are minimal. Day 1 the gelatin and cream mixture is made and mixed into the mascarpone cheese and cream base and then chilled overnight. Day 2 the mixture is whipped into the icing.







Mascarpone Chantilly


Standard batch

600 g 35% fat heavy whipping cream

divided​

• 100g
• 500g

1 vanilla bean or 1 tsp vanilla paste

1/2 tsp almond extract (optional, but I like it when not adding chocolate)

100g baker’s CANE sugar

7g gelatine sheets

300g mascarpone cheese (good quality)

170g - 226g chopped chocolate (optional)



============



Large batch

800g 35% fat heavy whipping cream

divided​

• 160g
• 640g

12g (5.5 sheets) gelatin sheets*

1 vanilla bean or 1 1/2 tsp vanilla paste

3/4 tsp almond extract (optional, but I like it when not adding chocolate)

450g mascarpone cheese (good quality)

160g baker’s CANE sugar

170g - 226g chopped chocolate (optional)


Equipment:

Day 1

• Bowl for gelatin sheets
• Saucepan
• Whisk
• Mixer with whisk attchment
• Bowl to chill mixture overnigh
• Plastic Wrap

Day 2

• Mixer with whisk attachment
• Heat proof bowl fitted over saucepan to melt chocolate if using
• Heat proof spatula

STEP 1

Soak the gelatine sheets in a bowl filled with cold water. After sheets are softened, remove them from the water and squeeze out excess water.



STEP 2

Place 100 grams of heavy whipping cream, the baker’s sugar, and seeds from the vanilla pod in a saucepan.

Whisk slowly over medium-high and heat until it JUST reaches boiling temperature. But DO NOT let it boil hard. Reduce the heat to the lowest setting.

Add the drained and squeezed out gelatin sheets to the cream mixture.

Gently whisk until the gelatin is completely dissolved. Set aside to cool.



STEP 3

In a mixer bowl combine mascarpone and 500 ml heavy whipping cream


With the whisk attachment mix on low to combine well. DO NOT WHIP THE MIXTURE, JUST MIX TO COMBINE.

Add the cooled gelatine cream mixture and mix on LOW for about 2 minutes to combine. Again, DO NOT WHIP THE MIXTURE, JUST MIX TO COMBINE. The mixture should NOT be fluffy.



STEP 4

Transfer mixture to a bowl. Place cling wrap DIRECTLY on the surface of the mixture to prevent a skin from forming on the surface.

Chill overnight



====================

Day 2



STEP 5

If using chocolate: place chopped chocolate in heat proof bowl; set over saucepan with simmering water. Stir with spatula until chocolate melts. Set aside to cool.

STEP 6

Transfer the mixture into the mixer bowl.

Beat on med-high until light and fluffy

STEP 7

May add up to 60 g sifted powered CANE sugar after whipping if a sweeter icing is desired. I do not recommend if adding chocolate.

Fold in 6 - 8 oz melted AND cooled chocolate





=============================



*Gelatin sheets are rated by bloom. The bloom is given a number. The higher the bloom number, the greater the get strength AND clarity. However, you do not have to calculate the amount to adjust for strength, as each sheet has been weighed so they all have the same gel strength.

• titanium 120 Bloom; 5 g per sheet
• bronze 140 Bloom; 3.5 g per sheet
• silver 160 Bloom; 2.5g per sheet
• gold 200 Bloom; 2 g per sheet
• platinum 230 Bloom; 175g per sheet

Note that platinum sheets only weighs 175g each, and all the other sheets weigh more. Yet platinum sheets have the same gel strength as all the other sheets since all gelatin sheets are weighted. So when using gelatin sheets, just weigh out the amount stated in the recipe.
Silver is the most commonly used gelatin sheet by pastry chefs. But it's fine to use bronze or less in applications where clarity is not an issue. When a lot of clarity is needed, gold or platinum should be used.



Where to buy gelatin sheets



https://modernistpantry.com/shop/?search_query=gelatin+sheets

Thank you so much for this information. I am definitely going to make it. Do you use the silver gelatine sheets?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you so much for this information. I am definitely going to make it. Do you use the silver gelatine sheets?

Yes I use silver for just about everything.

I've used gold, and my notes actually say gold. But I regularly use silver since that is what I always have.

What matters is the weight. Don’t hesitate to cut a gelatin sheet with clean kitchen shears to get get the weight of sheets you need. Going over a bit won’t hurt. You just don’t want to have less than the amount called for in any given recipe because that is the minimum needed for the holding power you will need. Going slightly over will just give you a bit more hold, not a lot. Gelatin sheets produce a more forgiving gel than granulated gelatin. And you cannot control clarity with granulated gelatin.

Gelatin sheets will last for years. Just note the date on the package. Place it in a Ziploc bag after opening. Try to use within a couple of years.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

That cake is beautiful and looks so delicious! For my Italian Meringue Buttercream, I cut it at room temperature and it still fell off. I never cut it when it was cold. I am just worried that if I make a cake for someone with it that it will do the same thing.

Okay, if your cake room temperature and the buttercream is falling off, then your icing is probably too warm.

Some years ago I brought a cake to a Thanksgiving dinner. When I walked in I placed the cake on a table, then started greeting people I hadn’t seen in a long time. I totaly forgot about the cake. Normally I immediately placed the cake in the refrigerator.

At some point the hostess, who is a dear friend of mine, whispered in my ear, “Your cake is melting.” I ran into the kitchen and shoved the cake caddy into the refrigerator.

The kitchen was probably 95°F. all the piped decorations melted down the side of the cake, and the sides were slouching.

After dinner everyone still ate the cake. Lol. Life happens.

 

[RachelB]

Yes I use silver for just about everything.

I've used gold, and my notes actually say gold. But I regularly use silver since that is what I always have.

What matters is the weight. Don’t hesitate to cut a gelatin sheet with clean kitchen shears to get get the weight of sheets you need. Going over a bit won’t hurt. You just don’t want to have less than the amount called for in any given recipe because that is the minimum needed for the holding power you will need. Going slightly over will just give you a bit more hold, not a lot. Gelatin sheets produce a more forgiving gel than granulated gelatin. And you cannot control clarity with granulated gelatin.

Gelatin sheets will last for years. Just note the date on the package. Place it in a Ziploc bag after opening. Try to use within a couple of years.

Thank you so much.

 

[RachelB]

Okay, if your cake room temperature and the buttercream is falling off, then your icing is probably too warm.

Some years ago I brought a cake to a Thanksgiving dinner. When I walked in I placed the cake on a table, then started greeting people I hadn’t seen in a long time. I totaly forgot about the cake. Normally I immediately placed the cake in the refrigerator.

At some point the hostess, who is a dear friend of mine, whispered in my ear, “Your cake is melting.” I ran into the kitchen and shoved the cake caddy into the refrigerator.

The kitchen was probably 95°F. all the piped decorations melted down the side of the cake, and the sides were slouching.

After dinner everyone still ate the cake. Lol. Life happens.

Thank you. This makes me feel better. Thank you so much for answering all my many questions.