Magic Souffle
- Thread starter Don M
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
No, but if you make it, please post about it.
I will. I am not a professional baker. it is one of my hobbies, but I do it quite a bit (at least 50hrs/week), and this one has me confused. If I figure it out or find a way to work around it, I will let you know. I am new to this blog and it seems very well put together with quite a bit if expertise.
Thank you Norcal.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
The recipe comes from pg 197 of Dominique Ansel's lates book-Secret Recipes. It is an involved recipe and runs about 4 pages. It is only the Souffle part that is giving me the problem. I will try and transpose that part as soon as I can and post it. Thank you for your interest.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
If you have the time that would be great. I’m curious as to how he stabilized the soufflé in a dough to bake it. It is very fragile.
For the most part Ansel’s work doesn’t interest me. He’s a business man more than a baker. Good at marketing, he just re-packages baked goods to look more slick. And the interesting thing is he’s not even anywhere close to the best at it. Look up Amaury Guichon’s instagram. Guichon is a master. My god, just look at that man’s croissants and he reminds you that the foundations of baking are everthing.
Thank you for your swift response. The pastry consist of a rectanular shape souffle, containing some ganache, which then is completly wrapped in a flavored brioche and returned to the original mould the souffle was baked in, for final baking. There is also a recipe for the brioce and ganache, which I have no problem with.
Souffle
Ingredients
Dark Chocolate 8g
Unsalted butter 91g
Granulated sugar 140g
Plain flour 30g
Baking Powder 10g
Whole eggs 3 (150g)
Day Before-Make Souffle
1. Melt the chocolate and butter in a small bowl on high power in 20- second intervals in the microwave, stirring with a heat proof spatula between intervals, until smooth.
2. Combine the granulated sugar, plain flour and baking powder and eggs in a stand mixer fitted with a whisk. Mix on low speed for a few minutes until just incorporated.
3. With the mixer on low speed, stream in the melted chocolate and butter. With a rubber spatula scrape down the sides of the bowl. Whip on high speed for 3 minutes until the butter is smooth. Cover with plastic wrap directly on the surface of the butter and refrigerate for 1 hr.
4. While the souffle batter is chilling, place a rack in the center of the oven and preheat the oven to 375F (190C) for conventional or 350F (175C)for convection.
5. Using a rubber spatula, place two large scoops of batter in a siphon, so that is half full.
6. Line the baking tray with baking paper and arrange the rectangular ring moulds about 2 inches (5 cm) apart. Grease the inside of the moulds with cooking oil spray. Pipe souffle batter into the moulds until they are about halfway full. Add a dollop of chocolate ganache with a spoon to the center of each mould. Cover with souffle batter to fill. Bake for 4 minutes. Rotate the tray 180 degrees and bake for 4 minutes more.
7. When fully baked, place the souffles, still in the moulds, in the freezer to set overnight.
My problem begins at #6. I first tried just putting thr pre-chilled batter in the siphon, and then I tried placing the warm batter in the siphon and chilling the siphon. In both cases the siphon would not force out the batter without great diffilculty. I shook it very well, and in the second case had to use 4 gas charges. I have the same sifon that Ansel uses in his You Tube video. My original siphon didnt work, and I though that was the problem so I purchased the upgrade model.
When the batter did come out of the siphon it seemed smooth and thick but not fluffy or aerated as the You Tube video seemed to show. It seemed to bake up ok at first but fell in on itself wheather I left it in the freezer overnight or not.
I beleive that published formulas are correct and therefore the problem is with the baker, But I can't see what I am doing wrong.
Most of what I bake I give away because for me it is in the process and the art that intrigues me and not the need for the pastry itself, so this is why I am wresteling with this.
I much appreciate any input I can get.
Souffle
Ingredients
Dark Chocolate 8g
Unsalted butter 91g
Granulated sugar 140g
Plain flour 30g
Baking Powder 10g
Whole eggs 3 (150g)
Day Before-Make Souffle
1. Melt the chocolate and butter in a small bowl on high power in 20- second intervals in the microwave, stirring with a heat proof spatula between intervals, until smooth.
2. Combine the granulated sugar, plain flour and baking powder and eggs in a stand mixer fitted with a whisk. Mix on low speed for a few minutes until just incorporated.
3. With the mixer on low speed, stream in the melted chocolate and butter. With a rubber spatula scrape down the sides of the bowl. Whip on high speed for 3 minutes until the butter is smooth. Cover with plastic wrap directly on the surface of the butter and refrigerate for 1 hr.
4. While the souffle batter is chilling, place a rack in the center of the oven and preheat the oven to 375F (190C) for conventional or 350F (175C)for convection.
5. Using a rubber spatula, place two large scoops of batter in a siphon, so that is half full.
6. Line the baking tray with baking paper and arrange the rectangular ring moulds about 2 inches (5 cm) apart. Grease the inside of the moulds with cooking oil spray. Pipe souffle batter into the moulds until they are about halfway full. Add a dollop of chocolate ganache with a spoon to the center of each mould. Cover with souffle batter to fill. Bake for 4 minutes. Rotate the tray 180 degrees and bake for 4 minutes more.
7. When fully baked, place the souffles, still in the moulds, in the freezer to set overnight.
My problem begins at #6. I first tried just putting thr pre-chilled batter in the siphon, and then I tried placing the warm batter in the siphon and chilling the siphon. In both cases the siphon would not force out the batter without great diffilculty. I shook it very well, and in the second case had to use 4 gas charges. I have the same sifon that Ansel uses in his You Tube video. My original siphon didnt work, and I though that was the problem so I purchased the upgrade model.
When the batter did come out of the siphon it seemed smooth and thick but not fluffy or aerated as the You Tube video seemed to show. It seemed to bake up ok at first but fell in on itself wheather I left it in the freezer overnight or not.
I beleive that published formulas are correct and therefore the problem is with the baker, But I can't see what I am doing wrong.
Most of what I bake I give away because for me it is in the process and the art that intrigues me and not the need for the pastry itself, so this is why I am wresteling with this.
I much appreciate any input I can get.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
A frozen soufflé is in fact a standard in pastry.
This base though is not mixed in the standard way. In fact it’s not even whipped. And he adds flour to stabilize the mixture in baking.
Plain flour is not an American term. It’s British.
Are you in the US? If so, you would be using American flour.
American flour and domestic flour in the UK are significantly different.
Domestic wheat in the UK is naturally very low in protein. So their flour has a protein content of about 9%.
It’s also illegal to bleach Flour in the European Union and the UK.
American all purpose flour ranges in protein from 10% - 11.7%. It can be bleached or unbleached. Cake flour is approximately 8% protein, but bleached.
So plain flour in the UK is low a 9% protein unbleached flour; comparable to a cake flour in the US. cake flour in the US is bleached. So American flour is going to absorb more water from the egg that UK flour. It will make a heavier thicker base.
If this recipe was based on UK standards, the egg size in the US and the UK and Europe are also significantly different. UK eggs are significantly larger than American eggs. Since UK eggs are larger there will be more free water molecules in the base. And with UK flour being a lower protein, absorbing less water, the mixture will be thinner.
Average America large egg shell weighs 8 grams. I note the weight of the shell because knowing the average weight of the shell will help you in reducing waste if you bake by weight.
For American large eggs
A 58g -59 g egg in shell will yield 50g of raw egg
A 61g - 62g egg in the shell will yield 53g of raw egg
The yolk weighs about 38% of the large raw egg
Eggs must meet a MINIMUM size to be included in a grade side. So any egg in the US between 56.7g - 63.7g is graded as a large egg.
| United States | ||
| Size | Minimum mass per egg | |
| Jumbo | 70.9 g | 2.5 oz |
| Extra-Large (XL) | 63.8 g | 2.25 oz. |
| Large (L) | 56.7 g | 2 oz. |
| Medium (M) | 49.6 g | 1.75 oz. |
| Small (S) | 42.5 g | 1.5 oz. |
| Peewee | 35.4 g | 1.25 oz. |
| Canada | ||
| Size | Minimum mass per egg | |
| Jumbo | 70 g | |
| Extra Large | 63 g | |
| Large | 56 g | |
| Medium | 49 g | |
| Europe | ||
| Size | Minimum mass per egg | |
| Extra large (XL) | 73 g | |
| Large (L) | 63 g | |
| Medium (M) | 53 g | |
| Small (S) | Less than 53 g |
The soufflé rises because the air inside the soufflé heats up AND the water molecules on the outside of those air bubbles penetrate the air bubbles as they expand, creating further expansion. If the oven is too hot, there is fast and significant expansion. But it is unstable
and collapses because the protein structure gets stretched beyond its limits.
Even though is not your standard frozen soufflé, some of the same principle should still apply. You don’t have to follow the mixing methods if they’re not working for you. Also don’t be afraid to play with the oven temperature. If it’s constantly collapsing, try reducing the temperature slightly.
The recipe doesn’t give any exact mixing time. So you’re free to play with it to aerate it more. Maybe start by beating the eggs a bit, then adding the sugar, then sifting your flour and baking soda together and over the eggs it. Then beating it before adding the remainder of the ingredients.
==============================
No, it it is not you the baker. Anyone who bakes 50 hours a week is not an novice. And trust me celebrity cookbooks are some of the worst cookbooks out there. I don’t buy them.
Celebrity chef cookbooks are riddled with errors. And expect any signature recipe to be poorly written. signature recipes make a celebrity chef’s reputation. When these recipes show up in a cookbook, they are not the actual recipes used in the business. First, and foremost they do not want to give their recipes to competitors. Second, the recipe must be modified for the skill of the home baker. Finally, recipe has to be modified to be made with the tools and equipment available to the home baker.
Celebrity chef cookbooks are also written by ghost writers, not the chefs. They’re too busy running there food empires to devote the time to write a cookbook. Most celebrity chefs barely participate in the writing of their cookbooks.
Article on cookbook ghost writers
I Was a Cookbook Ghostwriter (Published 2012)
Tales from the ink-stained (and grease-covered) wretches who actually produce most of the words attributed to chefs in cookbooks.
Dear Norcal,A frozen soufflé is in fact a standard in pastry.
This base though is not mixed in the standard way. In fact it’s not even whipped. And he adds flour to stabilize the mixture in baking.
Plain flour is not an American term. It’s British.
Are you in the US? If so, you would be using American flour.
American flour and domestic flour in the UK are significantly different.
Domestic wheat in the UK is naturally very low in protein. So their flour has a protein content of about 9%.
It’s also illegal to bleach Flour in the European Union and the UK.
American all purpose flour ranges in protein from 10% - 11.7%. It can be bleached or unbleached. Cake flour is approximately 8% protein, but bleached.
So plain flour in the UK is low a 9% protein unbleached flour; comparable to a cake flour in the US. cake flour in the US is bleached. So American flour is going to absorb more water from the egg that UK flour. It will make a heavier thicker base.
If this recipe was based on UK standards, the egg size in the US and the UK and Europe are also significantly different. UK eggs are significantly larger than American eggs. Since UK eggs are larger there will be more free water molecules in the base. And with UK flour being a lower protein, absorbing less water, the mixture will be thinner.
Average America large egg shell weighs 8 grams. I note the weight of the shell because knowing the average weight of the shell will help you in reducing waste if you bake by weight.
For American large eggs
A 58g -59 g egg in shell will yield 50g of raw egg
A 61g - 62g egg in the shell will yield 53g of raw egg
The yolk weighs about 38% of the large raw egg
Eggs must meet a MINIMUM size to be included in a grade side. So any egg in the US between 56.7g - 63.7g is graded as a large egg.
United States Size Minimum mass per egg Jumbo 70.9 g 2.5 oz Extra-Large (XL) 63.8 g 2.25 oz. Large (L) 56.7 g 2 oz. Medium (M) 49.6 g 1.75 oz. Small (S) 42.5 g 1.5 oz. Peewee 35.4 g 1.25 oz. Canada Size Minimum mass per egg Jumbo 70 g Extra Large 63 g Large 56 g Medium 49 g Europe Size Minimum mass per egg Extra large (XL) 73 g Large (L) 63 g Medium (M) 53 g Small (S) Less than 53 g
The soufflé rises because the air inside the soufflé heats up AND the water molecules on the outside of those air bubbles penetrate the air bubbles as they expand, creating further expansion. If the oven is too hot, there is fast and significant expansion. But it is unstable
and collapses because the protein structure gets stretched beyond its limits.
Even though is not your standard frozen soufflé, some of the same principle should still apply. You don’t have to follow the mixing methods if they’re not working for you. Also don’t be afraid to play with the oven temperature. If it’s constantly collapsing, try reducing the temperature slightly.
The recipe doesn’t give any exact mixing time. So you’re free to play with it to aerate it more. Maybe start by beating the eggs a bit, then adding the sugar, then sifting your flour and baking soda together and over the eggs it. Then beating it before adding the remainder of the ingredients.
==============================
No, it it is not you the baker. Anyone who bakes 50 hours a week is not an novice. And trust me celebrity cookbooks are some of the worst cookbooks out there. I don’t buy them.
Celebrity chef cookbooks are riddled with errors. And expect any signature recipe to be poorly written. signature recipes make a celebrity chef’s reputation. When these recipes show up in a cookbook, they are not the actual recipes used in the business. First, and foremost they do not want to give their recipes to competitors. Second, the recipe must be modified for the skill of the home baker. Finally, recipe has to be modified to be made with the tools and equipment available to the home baker.
Celebrity chef cookbooks are also written by ghost writers, not the chefs. They’re too busy running there food empires to devote the time to write a cookbook. Most celebrity chefs barely participate in the writing of their cookbooks.
Article on cookbook ghost writers
I Was a Cookbook Ghostwriter (Published 2012)
Tales from the ink-stained (and grease-covered) wretches who actually produce most of the words attributed to chefs in cookbooks.www.nytimes.com
Thank you very much indeed for your comprehensive reply.
I was certain that the book was based un UK standards when I saw the term :"plain flour". Given that the book states that plain flour can be replaced by All-Purpose flour, and knowing that European bread flour typically has a protien content of 11-13.5% (see Professional Baking 7th addition by Gisslen at pg 59) I thought that King Arthur's AP-flour at 11.7% should be ok. Whgat do you think?
I use the 3-2-1 quick method of determening egg weight. Is that accurate enough in your opinion for a recipe like this? I usuall weigh the whites for macarons. Should I do that here?
I was also not sure if their were enough egg whites, since according to Peterson on pg 362 of the First addition of BAKING, "If the base is to thin, then it wont support the egg whites and the base may fall". What do you think.
The base, as you say is not typical, and this is preciesly what draws me to this recipe. I will probably try my standard protocol for the souffle but not until I play a bit with the oven temp. I have a pair of electric Viking professionals, I am not the original owner, they are about 20 yrs old and when I got them I replaced the thermocouples, but since they are not digital I rely on the termoWorks Infared gun. I think that you may have found the problem in the temps.
You detailed input is very much appreciated.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
Plain flour is not bread flour in the UK.
Strong flour is bread flour in the UK. And those flours are milled from cultivars that are cultivated from imported wheat, mainly from Australia and Canada. So they have a much higher protein.
The domestic wheat in Britain is naturally so low in protein it cannot be use for bread.
King Arthur all purpose flour is extremely high in protein for all purpose. It’s way too high for most pastry applications. I use it very selectively for chocolate chip cookies, biscotti, some lean doughs for rolls. That’s just about all I use it for.
You need a soft wheat flour which is naturally lower protein. King Arthur makes a pastry flour that is soft wheat, 8% protein. It’s a tad lower than what a UK plain flour, but its unbleached, so it will more in line with a European flour in performance.
An egg white makes up approx 66% of the egg. The majority of water (90%) is in the egg white. you want to get as close an approximation as possible. separate your eggs. Then weigh out 99g whites, 56g egg yolk. That’s a 66%/33% division of egg white to yolk division.
Your infrared thermometer is useless for taking the temperature of your oven chamber. It does not measure air temperature. It is taking the temperature of the surface of the object. So you’re either getting the reading of the metal racks in the oven or the oven floor or walls. You’re not getting the air temperature.
My brother uses the infrared ThermoWorks for coffee roasting. He needs to monitor surface temperature of the coffee beans as he roasts. It’s very good for that because he’s taking surface temperature of an object.
An oven thermometer reads the air temperature. Always preheat the oven for a minimum of 25 - 30 minutes before baking to ensure the oven chamber is fully heated and more importantly evenly heated. Check the temperature of your oven before baking. An oven thermometer needs to be in your oven at all times as it is registering the air temperature in the oven chamber.
I had a a new built in Viking gas convection oven and 6 burner cooktop installed in the home I built in Virginia in 2001. Viking makes very good appliances. But I Learned very quickly that the convection was terrible for home baking.
Thank you for your comments.
I apologize if I misstated the plain flour refernce in Ansel's book. What I meant was that Ansel stated that A P flour can be used in place of plain flour. Our AP has 11.7 which according to glutin percentage would be classifed as bread flour in the UK system.
In any event I will pursue the oven temp issue as you have suggested, as well the egg measurement. I will also reduce the glutin percentage of the flour used.
Do you have any thoughts on why the siphon wouldn't work. Should it be used with room temp batter or chilled?
Thank you again.
I apologize if I misstated the plain flour refernce in Ansel's book. What I meant was that Ansel stated that A P flour can be used in place of plain flour. Our AP has 11.7 which according to glutin percentage would be classifed as bread flour in the UK system.
In any event I will pursue the oven temp issue as you have suggested, as well the egg measurement. I will also reduce the glutin percentage of the flour used.
Do you have any thoughts on why the siphon wouldn't work. Should it be used with room temp batter or chilled?
Thank you again.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
No I understood you, and I corrected you because that is wrong.
Plain flour in the UK does NOT have a 11.7% protein content.
Plain flour in the UK has a 9% protein content.
People who write those books for the celebrity chefs don’t know their subject.
trust me I’ve been at this for more than 20 years
This is one of the major flour mills in the UK.
Doves Farm | Organic Flours & Foods
www.dovesfarm.co.uk
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
And in the US “All purpose flour” is significantly different by brand
King Arthur All Purpose Flour
Protein 11.7%
Ash Unknown
Hard Red Wheat
Flour Treatment: Malted Barley Flour
Unbleached
Central Milling Flours
Organic Beehive
Protein 10%-10.5%
Ash 0.56%
Hard Red Winter Wheat blend
Flour Treatment: Organic Malted Barley Flour
Unbleached
Organic Artisan Bakers Craft
Protein 11.5%
Ash 0.60%
Hard Red Winter Wheat blend
Flour Treatment: None
Unbleached
Organic Artisan Bakers Craft Plus
Protein 11.5%
Ash 0.60%
Hard Red Winter Wheat blend
Flour Treatment: Organic Malted Barley Flour
Unbleached
Gold Medal All Purpose Flour
Protein 10%-10.5%
Wheat: unknown
Ash: unknown
Flour Treatment: Enzymes, type unknown
Bleached
Pillsbury All Purpose Flour
Protein 10%-10.5%
Wheat: unknown
Ash: unknown
Flour Treatment: Malted Barley Flour
Bleached
White Lily All Purpose Flour
Protein 9%
Wheat: soft red winter
Ash: unknown
Flour Treatment: Malted Barley Flour, Ascorbic Acid (Dough Conditioner),
Bleached
King Arthur All Purpose Flour
Protein 11.7%
Ash Unknown
Hard Red Wheat
Flour Treatment: Malted Barley Flour
Unbleached
Central Milling Flours
Organic Beehive
Protein 10%-10.5%
Ash 0.56%
Hard Red Winter Wheat blend
Flour Treatment: Organic Malted Barley Flour
Unbleached
Organic Artisan Bakers Craft
Protein 11.5%
Ash 0.60%
Hard Red Winter Wheat blend
Flour Treatment: None
Unbleached
Organic Artisan Bakers Craft Plus
Protein 11.5%
Ash 0.60%
Hard Red Winter Wheat blend
Flour Treatment: Organic Malted Barley Flour
Unbleached
Gold Medal All Purpose Flour
Protein 10%-10.5%
Wheat: unknown
Ash: unknown
Flour Treatment: Enzymes, type unknown
Bleached
Pillsbury All Purpose Flour
Protein 10%-10.5%
Wheat: unknown
Ash: unknown
Flour Treatment: Malted Barley Flour
Bleached
White Lily All Purpose Flour
Protein 9%
Wheat: soft red winter
Ash: unknown
Flour Treatment: Malted Barley Flour, Ascorbic Acid (Dough Conditioner),
Bleached
Again, thank you for taking the time to provide your detailed information.
I reduced the glutin percentage, kept a close look on the temp, and used my stanadrd protocol for a chocolate souffle.
it is a chocolate souffle center filled with a small amount of semi-soft dark chocolate ganache, all enrobed in an orange flavored brioche. It certainly need some work but it has promise. I realized a long time ago that the people who will ultimately eat what I bake do not look at them under the same microscope that I do, so I will keep working on it.
Thank God I do not make my living as a photographer!
Again, thank you for your help.
I reduced the glutin percentage, kept a close look on the temp, and used my stanadrd protocol for a chocolate souffle.
it is a chocolate souffle center filled with a small amount of semi-soft dark chocolate ganache, all enrobed in an orange flavored brioche. It certainly need some work but it has promise. I realized a long time ago that the people who will ultimately eat what I bake do not look at them under the same microscope that I do, so I will keep working on it.
Thank God I do not make my living as a photographer!
Again, thank you for your help.
Attachments
-
First Modified Attempt.jpg
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
Ah excellent. Now that know what works, you just have to refine the presentation. Good job!!
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2020
- Messages
- 1,043
- Reaction score
- 218
What he does is not what writes.
Thats clear as day looking at the video.
He makes a traditional mousse, yolk into the choc base then whip and fold the whites in.
Don't chill it. It goes straight into the mold and straight in the oven.
The only thing different from mousse is flour instead of whipped cream.
But really, cake in brioche?
They often simplify methods for books . They try to make it fool proof.