Method for soft wholemeal rolls?

[Emmie]

Hi all,

I‘m after a tried and tested method for soft wholemeal rolls that anyone wouldn’t mind sharing. I don’t really bake wholemeal bread as I’m not a fan. But my little girl is back at preschool on Friday and I need to pack her a wholemeal roll for lunch - typically my grocery delivery had everything but the rolls. And she’s allergic to soya, which is in almost all store bought bread and rolls here so I need to make some.

I know wholemeal needs higher hydration and I don’t mind using the tangzhong method if I need to. I just want to make a batch of teeny little toddler-size rolls from about 250g flour.

Failing that, I do have four quarter pound loaf tins that I could use to make her mini loaves to slice up. In that case it doesn’t matter so much if the bread is a bit crusty.

Thank you!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hi all,

I‘m after a tried and tested method for soft wholemeal rolls that anyone wouldn’t mind sharing. I don’t really bake wholemeal bread as I’m not a fan. But my little girl is back at preschool on Friday and I need to pack her a wholemeal roll for lunch - typically my grocery delivery had everything but the rolls. And she’s allergic to soya, which is in almost all store bought bread and rolls here so I need to make some.

I know wholemeal needs higher hydration and I don’t mind using the tangzhong method if I need to. I just want to make a batch of teeny little toddler-size rolls from about 250g flour.

Failing that, I do have four quarter pound loaf tins that I could use to make her mini loaves to slice up. In that case it doesn’t matter so much if the bread is a bit crusty.

Thank you!

@Emmie, you can convert a bread recipe that you are using into rolls simply by dividing into equal portions for rolls.
you can substitute I want a portion of the bread flour for wholemeal flour, then increase the water the water by 1% for every 10% of wholemeal by weight.

Example,

Flour 250g
Hydration is 65%

Substitute 20% wholemeal

250 x .80 = 200 g bread flour
250 x .20 = 50 g wholemeal flour

increase hydration 2% (1% for every 10%; 20% was substituted)
65% + 2% = 67% hydration

250 x .67 = 167.5

hydration 167mL

==============================================================

If you substitute 50% wholemeal

250 x .50 = 125 g bread flour
250 x .50 = 125 g wholemeal flour

increase hydration 5% (1% for every 10%; 50% was substituted)
65% + 5% = 70% hydration

125 x .70 = 175

hydration 175mL


I don’t know if this is any help.

 

[Emmie]

@Emmie, you can convert a bread recipe that you are using into rolls simply by dividing into equal portions for rolls.
you can substitute I want a portion of the bread flour for wholemeal flour, then increase the water the water by 1% for every 10% of wholemeal by weight.

Example,

Flour 250g
Hydration is 65%

Substitute 20% wholemeal

250 x .80 = 200 g bread flour
250 x .20 = 50 g wholemeal flour

increase hydration 2% (1% for every 10%; 20% was substituted)
65% + 2% = 67% hydration

250 x .67 = 167.5

hydration 167mL

==============================================================

If you substitute 50% wholemeal

250 x .50 = 125 g bread flour
250 x .50 = 125 g wholemeal flour

increase hydration 5% (1% for every 10%; 50% was substituted)
65% + 5% = 70% hydration

125 x .70 = 175

hydration 175mL


I don’t know if this is any help.

Ah, thanks Norcal. I had a feeling I’d be better off not using 100% wholemeal bread flour but wasn’t sure about the mix and hydration for wholemeal. Do I need to bake at a different temp at all to stop them going crusty or will the hydration level take care of that?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ah, thanks Norcal. I had a feeling I’d be better off not using 100% wholemeal bread flour but wasn’t sure about the mix and hydration for wholemeal. Do I need to bake at a different temp at all to stop them going crusty or will the hydration level take care of that?

Use A 350°F (170°C) oven temperature. Check at about 15 minutes. If they look like they’re browning too quickly just tent them with a sheet of foil. Usually rolls only need to bake about 25 - 30 minutes depending on how large you make them; because they’re a small ones for the little one they will probably bake pretty fast.

The wholemeal flour is going to absorb that extra liquid, so it should get crusty on its own. So whatever that recipe is normally like it should turn out pretty similar. The more wholemeal flour you replace in the recipe, the lower the rise and change in texture because wholemeal flour has more bran and germ. If you replace 20% the rolls will be very similar to what the recipe is like normally but you’ll have a more nutritional roll; as you get up to 50% you’ll notice a much richer color, change in texture, and a lower rise.

EDIT: your daughter is going to have all these really wonderful memories of your homemade bread, just like my friend from all those years ago has memories her mum’s Sunday pot roast and Yorkshire pudding

 

[Emmie]

Use A 350°F (170°C) oven temperature. Check at about 15 minutes. If they look like they’re browning too quickly just tent them with a sheet of foil. Usually rolls only need to bake about 25 - 30 minutes depending on how large you make them; because they’re a small ones for the little one they will probably bake pretty fast.

The wholemeal flour is going to absorb that extra liquid, so it should get crusty on its own. So whatever that recipe is normally like it should turn out pretty similar. The more wholemeal flour you replace in the recipe, the lower the rise and change in texture because wholemeal flour has more bran and germ. If you replace 20% the rolls will be very similar to what the recipe is like normally but you’ll have a more nutritional roll; as you get up to 50% you’ll notice a much richer color, change in texture, and a lower rise.

EDIT: your daughter is going to have all these really wonderful memories of your homemade bread, just like my friend from all those years ago has memories her mum’s Sunday pot roast and Yorkshire pudding

Food memories are awesome. My mum used to get these mini wholemeal loaves from the baker, which is probably what prompted me to get the quarter pound loaf tins in the first place. When I was off of school unwell, she’d do me a buttered crumpet, cut into quarters.

 

[Annoying Twit]

I am no expert, so take this in that light.

I've been increasing hydration in my rolls by adding water during kneading after the dough becomes a bit smooth and round. I tear open the dough ball, add some more water, carefully close the dough to close it in, and then knead. Even if the water 'breaks out' again, I can just keep kneading and it will be adsorbed. I knead my bread in a quite large pyrex bowl, so the water isn't going anywhere and can be mopped up. I aim for 200ml warm water for 300g bread flour and 1 tablespoon of extra gluten. I find that if I put in all the water at once the dough ball is too moist and sticky to knead by hand, but leaving 50ml to add bit by bit later works well.

I've read that including oil in the dough makes the bread softer. I put one tablespoon of vegetable oil at the moment, and am wondering about trying using more. I can complete my recipe with one teaspoon of sugar, one teaspoon of salt, and one teaspoon of dried yeast. Regular teaspoons not cooking measuring ones.

I cook them in a non-preheated oven set to 180C for 16 minutes.

After the rolls are cooked (and I'm told they should not be overcooked or they dry out more and are harder), I brush them with a very slight amount of melted margarine straight out of the oven. That gives them a soft crust. If you prefer crusty rolls, then don't. I only use margarine because I'm vegan. Others may use butter.

My 'wholemeal' rolls are made from half wholemeal and half white flour. I doubt that your child's school would know that they are not full wholemeal. They look it. They rise fine.

Rolls are soft on the day that they are cooked. Not so much on the day after. And, for the day after that ... I microwave them to use as (e.g.) warmed burger rolls as otherwise they are hard and stodgy.

When I get this right, the rolls when fresh are most definitely soft. After writing the above I went and fetched a freshly cooked roll, and it is perhaps a little crusty still on the outside, but very soft on the inside.

 

[Emmie]

I am no expert, so take this in that light.

I've been increasing hydration in my rolls by adding water during kneading after the dough becomes a bit smooth and round. I tear open the dough ball, add some more water, carefully close the dough to close it in, and then knead. Even if the water 'breaks out' again, I can just keep kneading and it will be adsorbed. I knead my bread in a quite large pyrex bowl, so the water isn't going anywhere and can be mopped up. I aim for 200ml warm water for 300g bread flour and 1 tablespoon of extra gluten. I find that if I put in all the water at once the dough ball is too moist and sticky to knead by hand, but leaving 50ml to add bit by bit later works well.

I've read that including oil in the dough makes the bread softer. I put one tablespoon of vegetable oil at the moment, and am wondering about trying using more. I can complete my recipe with one teaspoon of sugar, one teaspoon of salt, and one teaspoon of dried yeast. Regular teaspoons not cooking measuring ones.

I cook them in a non-preheated oven set to 180C for 16 minutes.

After the rolls are cooked (and I'm told they should not be overcooked or they dry out more and are harder), I brush them with a very slight amount of melted margarine straight out of the oven. That gives them a soft crust. If you prefer crusty rolls, then don't. I only use margarine because I'm vegan. Others may use butter.

My 'wholemeal' rolls are made from half wholemeal and half white flour. I doubt that your child's school would know that they are not full wholemeal. They look it. They rise fine.

Rolls are soft on the day that they are cooked. Not so much on the day after. And, for the day after that ... I microwave them to use as (e.g.) warmed burger rolls as otherwise they are hard and stodgy.

When I get this right, the rolls when fresh are most definitely soft. After writing the above I went and fetched a freshly cooked roll, and it is perhaps a little crusty still on the outside, but very soft on the inside.

Ah, yes I didn’t think about brushing with margarine (she’s allergic to dairy too, so no butter here either), that would soften them a bit. Fortunately her preschool don’t insist on wholemeal bread like some places - I know of settings that are really strict about lunchboxes! I’d just rather she had a bit of wholemeal in her diet. You are right about them toughening up the next day - not sure what I’m going to do about that as there’s no way I’m making and cooling rolls before we leave the house at 9am. I might have to try tangzhong to see if that helps.

With the hydration, I’m fortunate enough to just never have had a problem kneading high hydration dough. I don’t know why. I think it’s more by luck than judgement, must be something to do with my natural kneading technique. I’ve never heard of adding extra gluten. Is it the kind of thing a specialist baking supplier would sell?

I actually made my rolls this morning and used my usual recipe as a base. I usually make a 70% hydration dough. So then I followed @Norcalbaker59 ’s advice and I swapped in 100g of wholemeal flour and increased the hydration. So:

150g white bread flour
100g wholemeal bread flour (=40%)
175g water to make 70% hydration BUT as Norcal says, I need to increase hydration by 1% for every 10% wholemeal, so 4% increase in hydration needed = 185g water.
4g dried active yeast
5g salt

Like you @Annoying Twit I added a glug of olive oil.

It actually rose pretty well. The pre-shaping and final shaping were good but I over-proofed them a bit because my little girl wanted to go outside and play with her scooter! When I cut into the dough, it deflated a bit. To try and compensate, I put them in a 200C oven for the first 5 minutes to try and get a good oven spring and then turned it down - think I got away with it.

Whilst I was kneading the dough, I had a different idea for shaping and remembered having hedgehog rolls when i was little so I made four little hedgehogs! (I already removed a portion of the dough to make pizza later) Looking at the size, I could have got away with doing 5. I also could have done a few more prickles with deeper cuts. The eyes were too deep - I put currants in for eyes but the dough puffed over them in the oven so I’ll think of something else next time. But I think they’re cute! And my little girl has already chosen the one she wants to take to preschool tomorrow.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ah, yes I didn’t think about brushing with margarine (she’s allergic to dairy too, so no butter here either), that would soften them a bit. Fortunately her preschool don’t insist on wholemeal bread like some places - I know of settings that are really strict about lunchboxes! I’d just rather she had a bit of wholemeal in her diet. You are right about them toughening up the next day - not sure what I’m going to do about that as there’s no way I’m making and cooling rolls before we leave the house at 9am. I might have to try tangzhong to see if that helps.

With the hydration, I’m fortunate enough to just never have had a problem kneading high hydration dough. I don’t know why. I think it’s more by luck than judgement, must be something to do with my natural kneading technique. I’ve never heard of adding extra gluten. Is it the kind of thing a specialist baking supplier would sell?

I actually made my rolls this morning and used my usual recipe as a base. I usually make a 70% hydration dough. So then I followed @Norcalbaker59 ’s advice and I swapped in 100g of wholemeal flour and increased the hydration. So:

150g white bread flour
100g wholemeal bread flour (=40%)
175g water to make 70% hydration BUT as Norcal says, I need to increase hydration by 1% for every 10% wholemeal, so 4% increase in hydration needed = 185g water.
4g dried active yeast
5g salt

Like you @Annoying Twit I added a glug of olive oil.

It actually rose pretty well. The pre-shaping and final shaping were good but I over-proofed them a bit because my little girl wanted to go outside and play with her scooter! When I cut into the dough, it deflated a bit. To try and compensate, I put them in a 200C oven for the first 5 minutes to try and get a good oven spring and then turned it down - think I got away with it.

Whilst I was kneading the dough, I had a different idea for shaping and remembered having hedgehog rolls when i was little so I made four little hedgehogs! (I already removed a portion of the dough to make pizza later) Looking at the size, I could have got away with doing 5. I also could have done a few more prickles with deeper cuts. The eyes were too deep - I put currants in for eyes but the dough puffed over them in the oven so I’ll think of something else next time. But I think they’re cute! And my little girl has already chosen the one she wants to take to preschool tomorrow.

View attachment 3851
View attachment 3852

OMG those are soooo adorable!!! What memories you are making—that is going to be a happy little girl. This really made me smile

 

[Emmie]

OMG those are soooo adorable!!! What memories you are making—that is going to be a happy little girl. This really made me smile

I do her a post-it note illustration and note for her lunchbox too, like Minnie Mouse or Winnie the Pooh or one of our UK TV characters. I’ve gone digital now as those post-its are hard on the eyes! So I’ve done a posi-it of her tomorrow in the clothes she’s going to wear. I think this is probably mum-guilt.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I do her a post-it note illustration and note for her lunchbox too, like Minnie Mouse or Winnie the Pooh or one of our UK TV characters. I’ve gone digital now as those post-its are hard on the eyes! So I’ve done a posi-it of her tomorrow in the clothes she’s going to wear. I think this is probably mum-guilt.

View attachment 3853

That is so sweet. It’s good for her to know that you are thinking about her no matter where she is at. When they get older, they remember these little things. My kids will bring up something about there childhood that I did, some food I used to make them. And they always remember the food....Once my youngest son brought some friends over when he was a teen and asked me to fix them something to eat. Later I heard him in the kitchen say, “Didn’t I tell you my mom could cook.”

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Emmie I swear those little hedgehog rolls are so darn cute!!! you should do a YouTube tutorial video. That would definitely go viral

 

[retired baker]

Hi all,

I‘m after a tried and tested method for soft wholemeal rolls that anyone wouldn’t mind sharing. I don’t really bake wholemeal bread as I’m not a fan. But my little girl is back at preschool on Friday and I need to pack her a wholemeal roll for lunch - typically my grocery delivery had everything but the rolls. And she’s allergic to soya, which is in almost all store bought bread and rolls here so I need to make some.

I know wholemeal needs higher hydration and I don’t mind using the tangzhong method if I need to. I just want to make a batch of teeny little toddler-size rolls from about 250g flour.

Failing that, I do have four quarter pound loaf tins that I could use to make her mini loaves to slice up. In that case it doesn’t matter so much if the bread is a bit crusty.

Thank you!

Its a simple rule of thumb, if you want softer bread just add some sugar or honey.
sugar can be 6x the amount of salt .

 

[Annoying Twit]

Its a simple rule of thumb, if you want softer bread just add some sugar or honey.
sugar can be 6x the amount of salt .

Really?!? I'm surprised as I used to add one tablespoon of sugar and one teaspoon of salt. But, I could taste the sweetness in the bread and reduced the amount of sugar.

I'll try more sugar again to see what happens.

 

[Emmie]

Its a simple rule of thumb, if you want softer bread just add some sugar or honey.
sugar can be 6x the amount of salt .

Wow, yes that does sound like a lot, as @Annoying Twit says but I'll give it a go. I don't normally add any sugar to my bread at all, but my father-in-law is a beekeeper so we have an inexhaustible supply of honey I can use! As I had to make the rolls a day before, they had actually softened quite nicely by the following day!

 

[retired baker]

Wow, yes that does sound like a lot, as @Annoying Twit says but I'll give it a go. I don't normally add any sugar to my bread at all, but my father-in-law is a beekeeper so we have an inexhaustible supply of honey I can use! As I had to make the rolls a day before, they had actually softened quite nicely by the following day!

Yeast feeds on sugar, what you put in isn't what is left after its baked.

 

[ShuBunny]

Here to say the hedgehogs are adorable @Emmie!

 

[Emmie]

Here to say the hedgehogs are adorable @Emmie!

Haha, thank you! I’m working on an idea for owls this week!

 

[retired baker]

Really?!? I'm surprised as I used to add one tablespoon of sugar and one teaspoon of salt. But, I could taste the sweetness in the bread and reduced the amount of sugar.

I'll try more sugar again to see what happens.

an alternative is crank the oven up from 350 to 425, they will brown before they dehydrate, don't bake by the clock, take them out when you like the color.

the last rolls I made for burgers were done in 16 minutes.

The photo above looks more like french bread.

 

[Emmie]

an alternative is crank the oven up from 350 to 425, they will brown before they dehydrate, don't bake by the clock, take them out when you like the color.

the last rolls I made for burgers were done in 16 minutes.

The photo above looks more like french bread.

Haha, yes that’s a good guide. I often leave them in longer than the recipe if I don’t like the colour. I think we’re probably used to darker bread in the UK than in the US? But on the continent they tend to bake it even darker than we do.

 

[retired baker]

Haha, yes that’s a good guide. I often leave them in longer than the recipe if I don’t like the colour. I think we’re probably used to darker bread in the UK than in the US? But on the continent they tend to bake it even darker than we do.

OK, the color of the crust is caramelization.
You get that 2 ways, sugar or heat.
You can use almost any type of sugar, tate and lyle , honey etc.
I remember growing up in the uk, very dark brown loaves, almost smoking when they came out of the oven.
Thats high heat and molasses.