No knead bread

Discussion in 'Bread' started by hawkeyefxr, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    I have been baking for about three years now so still a toddler (i wish). For about nine months now i have been using a a no knead recipe of 3 cups of flour, 1 1/2 cups of warm water plus yeast and salt, with a bake time of 30 mins in a dutch oven then 15 mins out of the dutch oven and just in the open oven. I like the way the bread bakes, like a ciabatta bread.
    I want to make a bigger loaf using 6 cups of flour but i am not sure how much to increase the cook times. To say double it like the ingredients would perhaps give me a cindered block, can anyone give me a guide please.

    I'm not a baker, cook of any sort i am just a baby at tall this cooking stuff but since retiring i have been making the tea/diner every other night or so so my wife gets a sit down. Nothing fancy, curries :), chilli's mince of chicken pies, bread (of course) and various other little bits.
    I think everyone should retire at 30, i love the freedom, cooking, baking, woodworking and riding my Harley
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 22, 2018
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  2. hawkeyefxr

    Becky Administrator

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    Welcome to the forum! :)

    Me too! Won't make it happen unfortunately ;) :D

    The answer is; it depends. Baking time for bread ensures the loaf is cooked all the way through, so the shape affects how quickly the heat can permeate. Bread dough is full of bubbles, that's how it rises, but these bubbles also act as insulation which prevent the heat getting to the middle. The more spherical the loaf, the bigger the problem. Obviously there's the added problem that you don't want the outside of the loaf to burn, so that also needs to be taken into consideration. Generally speaking, for a larger loaf you want to lower the oven temperature but bake it for longer. I'd start with roughly 2x the baking time, 10-15% lower oven temp, and go from there.

    I've never baked bread in a Dutch oven so I'm not sure how that'll affect things though. Will you be using a bigger Dutch oven for the bigger loaf?
     
    Becky, Oct 22, 2018
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  3. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    The answer is win the lottery, those that say they will keep on working are sad.

    The Dutch Oven (a cast iron oval dish with a lid) is pre-heated in the oven. I was thinking along the same lines as you have described. The loaf is tall, about 6in as opposed to 3in for the normal one i make.
    I will post how it goes later in the week.
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 22, 2018
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  4. hawkeyefxr

    Becky Administrator

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    I'd be so good at being retired :D

    I'm glad we're thinking along the same lines, let us know how you get on.
     
    Becky, Oct 22, 2018
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  5. hawkeyefxr

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    Doubling a recipe doesn’t necessarily translate into doubling the baking time. And with bread it’s best to bake to internal temperature rather than time.

    If you’re using 3 cups of flour it sounds like Jim Lahey no knead bread recipe.

    That recipe produces a 1.25 pound loaf based on 400 grand of flour. So doubling the recipe will be a 2 1/2 pound loaf. That’s a pretty good size loaf.

    At 75% hydration, that’s 600g of water. Assuming it is Lahey’s recipe you’ll be baking at about 475°F.

    Given the amount of water and the dough volume, you will still want to bake hot. You want to take advantage of the radiant heat for maximum oven spring, You may even want to consider preheating the Dutch oven at 500°F given the additional dough. Then drop the oven temperature back down to 475°F as soon as the bread goes in the Dutch oven.

    Baking 450°F – 475°F ensures rapid water evaporation. That in turn creates steam. Which will aid starch gelatinization on the surface. That creates the lovely brown crust with the chewy texture.

    HOWEVER, do NOT bake to time, you should bake to internal temperature. Use an instant read thermometer and pull the loaf when the internal temperature reaches 210°F. Do not let it go above that temperature.

    Check the internal temperature at 45 mins. to see how quickly the bread is baking. Once the internal temperature reaches 200°F start monitoring it very closely as it will reach 210°F fairly quickly.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Oct 22, 2018
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  6. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    Thanks for all the info Norcalbaker59. I will give that all a go, i am at time of writing waiting for the second rise so i should be back with an answer later today.
    As it happens we bought a probe thermometer a couple of weeks ago so i can use that.
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 23, 2018
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  7. hawkeyefxr

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I look forward to hearing about the bake.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Oct 24, 2018
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  8. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    Well i baked ot for one hour in the oven at 240c 464f, then took it out out the cast iron pot for 20mins at 220c 428f. The crust was a little thick, about 3/32. After cooling i cut the end off and pinched the bread and it was quite bouncy in it's return.
    The thermometer i used was did not go high enough for bread, it's a meat thermometer, i didn't realise that although the oven temp was right at 240c the insertion rod only went to 100c 212F . I have ordered an insertion probe for my fluke meter and will use that in future (the Fluke is left over from my days as an AC Engineer)
    I cannot post a picture as it has to be online so a URL can be used, attaching direct from PC is a no go.
    I will wait a couple of days and see how the bread (matures) lol, i will also look at getting pictures on line to post, unless someone knows of a way to do a direct PC upload..
    Sorry for the mix of Imperial and Metric i"m of an age where i used both but preferred Imperial though im more comfortable with C temps.
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 24, 2018
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  9. hawkeyefxr

    Becky Administrator

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    You can upload images directly to your posts by clicking the 'Upload a File' button (it's next to the Post Reply button). If your image is very large it may ask you to resize it first, but other than that it should work fine. Once the images are uploaded they will appear as thumbnails below your post - you can then either insert them as a Thumbnail or Full Image. Just put the cursor where you want to insert the image and then press the relevant button.

    There is more guidance here: https://www.baking-forums.com/help/how-to/
     
    Becky, Oct 24, 2018
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  10. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    Ha Ha, just seen it, must wear my glasses. Anyhow here it is.
    DSC_0082.JPG Never seen this facility on a forum, easy peesy
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 24, 2018
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  11. hawkeyefxr

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I’m glad to hear the bread baked up.

    The thick crust could be a few things. The first thing that comes to mind is not enough gluten development. Gluten development is really key to getting the light crunchy crust. And of course with no knead bread developing gluten becomes difficult.

    Are you using a bread flour or all-purpose flour? If you’re using all purpose try switching to bread flour.

    No worries about mixing up the different measuring systems. I bake in metric, I can’t even think in volume or when it comes to baking. In the US most home baker’s use volume measurement. But in culinary training metric is used. So my brain is trained to bake in metric.

    But I use Fahrenheit for temperatures. Since this form has participants from all over the world, I to find that I’m mixing the metric and imperial systems in my posts.

    It took me a while to figure out how to post pictures. I still have problems. I access the Internet with my iPhone since I do not have Internet in my house. The photos in IPhoto are too large to post. To reduce them I have to email them to myself. Before it sends, I select medium or small. After the photos arrive in my email, save them to my iphotos.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Oct 24, 2018
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  12. hawkeyefxr

    Becky Administrator

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    Good point re gluten development! :) I wonder if the amount of steam also has played a part in the thickness of the crust. I'll caveat this with saying I'm not massively experienced with bread-making, and as mentioned previously I've never baked bread with a Dutch oven, but I'm wondering whether that's also a factor here. The Dutch oven will presumably trap the steam from the bread dough as it bakes, and a bigger quantity of dough in the same sized container would logically produce more steam in a smaller space. I'm just guessing though!
     
    Becky, Oct 25, 2018
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  13. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    I will keep experimenting, think i will leave the lid off the Dutch oven next time to see if this will allow steam to escape.
    Will try one thing at a time otherwise i won't know what caused what. Won't be till next week now.
    There is one interesting thing, i did a bread making course about three/four years ago (this was not a no knead bread though) And when it came time to bake the dough we were told to put a small tray of water in the oven as you turned the oven on to heat up. This does cause a crust to form because i forgot it once and the outside of the loaf was quite thin as far as the crust goes.
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 25, 2018
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  14. hawkeyefxr

    Becky Administrator

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    Yeah steam is a common way to get a good crust. You can get commercial ovens (and some fancy domestic ones) that produce steam automatically but it's easy enough to put a small tray of water in there or use a spray bottle.

    That's a very good idea! Let us know how you get on :)
     
    Becky, Oct 25, 2018
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  15. hawkeyefxr

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I would not advise removing the lid. The reason a Dutch oven with a lid is used is to create an oven within an oven. This allows the steam to be trapped. In commercial bakeries the ovens are designed with a built in steamer. The steam keeps the dough from setting too quickly by keeping the surface moist. If the steam is allowed to escape the surface will dry out very quickly. Once the surface price out it will inhibit rice. So the steam helps with the rise. The rise referred to as “oven spring”.

    But oven spring only happens in the first 10 minutes of baking. After that phase is complete, you want get rid of the steam. Commercial ovens allow the baker to control how long steam is injected in the oven chamber. The ovens have vents that allow the baker to open and close as need to hold or release the steam in the oven. When baking at home in a Dutch oven, you create and control steam by placing the lid on the Dutch oven, then allow the steam to evaporate by removing the lid after 10 - 15 mins.

    How much steam is created depends on the volume of the loaf, the hydration level in the dough, and the temperature of the Dutch oven.

    But you have to keep in mind that the level of gluten development is the primary factor in rise and crust quality. If there isn’t enough gluten development, the bread will not rise much. If it does not rise much, the dough will not stretch thin and create that crispy chewy thin crust.

    Kenji Alt-Lopez, a food scientist and cookbook author has a very good easy to understand explanation on the science of no knead bread.

    https://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/the-food-lab-the-science-of-no-knead-dough.html
     
    Norcalbaker59, Oct 25, 2018
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  16. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    Well, that was a lot of serious and much appreciated info. I will try the 10-15 min spring and remove the lid.
    I was a maintenance engineer in a company that had steam oven and they are powerful things. They did not bake bread though lol.
    I am baking a loaf later today so will post the results.
     
    hawkeyefxr, Oct 30, 2018
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  17. hawkeyefxr

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    Great looking forward to seeing how your next load turns out. The photo of that love you posted earlier actually looks pretty good.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Oct 30, 2018
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  18. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    Well, Initial rise was left overnight as normal, i tipped the dough out and flattened it, as normal then folded it a third, then third then in half. left for 2hrs then switched the oven on with the Dutch oven inside, it took about 20 mins to reach 260c 500F.
    Put the dough into the Dutch oven (dough was sticky but not dry or wet) put the lid on and left for 15mins. Then took the lid off and lowered the temp to 230c 446F and baked for a further 45mins.
    Removed Dutch oven and tipped the bread out and returned to the over upside down for 10mins and then removed.
    I put the bread in the garage to cool with the Harley ( i think the Harley made the difference :) . )
    When cooled right down i cut the end of the bread off, it has a nice crust, not thick and the bread knife was clean of dough. This was not the case on the previous loaf.
    Picture below.
    I need to make a few more loaves to confirm that i have it right but it's looking good.
     

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    hawkeyefxr, Oct 30, 2018
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  19. hawkeyefxr

    Becky Administrator

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    That's looking great @hawkeyefxr! How does it compare to the smaller version you usually make? Glad to hear the Harley made a difference ;) :D
     
    Becky, Nov 1, 2018
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  20. hawkeyefxr

    hawkeyefxr Member

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    The internal structure of the bread is different, the small loaf was made conventionally in a mixer. The texture is more like a shop bought loaf.
    The no knead loaf is more like a ciabatta bread, a more open texture. The crust came out thicker that i wanted it to though it has softened up and not a jaw breaker.
    I am still waiting for the thermometer probe to see what internal temps i get in the bread as Norcalbaker59 has suggested.

    I don't think the Harley helped much lol, just an excuse to go look at it as it's to cold for me to ride this time of year, i'm a fair weather rider these days.
     
    hawkeyefxr, Nov 2, 2018
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