Over-wet dough

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Hi, all.
I'm learning to bake, especially bread and pizza dough. I have a digital scale and follow recipes exactly. Last week I made pizza dough using all-purpose flour and added vital gluten. I measured everything exactly, added the correct amount of H20 and flour, and it was WAY too sticky after the first rise. The YouTuber who posted the recipe said it would be sticky and showed how to use fast, slap and fold motions to prevent the dough from sticking to your hands much, but my dough was so wet that I couldn't even scoop it up. I added some flour knowing that that would change the hydration level but having to do it just to work with the dough. Anyway, after much frustration and overworking the dough, I got a toothy pizza crust with little air and was too dense- edible but not great.

Today, Following a recipe for baguette, after the first rise AGAIN I ended up with a gloppy mess that is unworkable.
Does the brand of all-purpose flour make a difference in hydration? Both recipes said it could be substituted for bread flour, and I do add vital gluten.
Does house humidity make a big difference? I live on the east coast of the U.S. where humidity is always unbearable.
Any pointers would be appreciated.
 
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I wrote you a long response and my computer ate it. so short answer is yes, Buy King Arthur. I had bad experience with store brand. If you store flour in airtight containers, then house humidity can only affect rising time, not proportions IMO
 
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I wrote you a long response and my computer ate it. so short answer is yes, Buy King Arthur. I had bad experience with store brand. If you store flour in airtight containers, then house humidity can only affect rising time, not proportions IMO
Thanks. I do buy store brands, and put them in 5 gal. buckets in plastic bags, throw in a desiccant pack or 3, and seal the buckets with a lid. I don't know that the humidity of the flour is the issue, I was wondering about the humidity of the house.
I discovered long ago to use a digital scale and weigh my ingredients rather than use dry measure, and that helped for a while. I add gluten to my all-purpose and do get good gluten strands.

I was hoping NOT to hear that cheap flour is my issue...A.P. King Arthur is $7/bag Walmart brand is $4. It does fine with my rolls, cakes, etc. but not so well with pizza dough or baguette. I usually use premium 00 flour for pizza so may try that and see if I'm still getting an over-hydration.
 
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Thanks. I do buy store brands, and put them in 5 gal. buckets in plastic bags, throw in a desiccant pack or 3, and seal the buckets with a lid. I don't know that the humidity of the flour is the issue, I was wondering about the humidity of the house.
I discovered long ago to use a digital scale and weigh my ingredients rather than use dry measure, and that helped for a while. I add gluten to my all-purpose and do get good gluten strands.

I was hoping NOT to hear that cheap flour is my issue...A.P. King Arthur is $7/bag Walmart brand is $4. It does fine with my rolls, cakes, etc. but not so well with pizza dough or baguette. I usually use premium 00 flour for pizza so may try that and see if I'm still getting an over-hydration.
One of the biggest differences between King Arthur flour and store brands is the protein content. KAF may be a bit more expensive, but Walmart and Target sell it at below-supermarket prices. They even offer home delivery.
 
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Hi, all.
I'm learning to bake, especially bread and pizza dough. I have a digital scale and follow recipes exactly. Last week I made pizza dough using all-purpose flour and added vital gluten. I measured everything exactly, added the correct amount of H20 and flour, and it was WAY too sticky after the first rise. The YouTuber who posted the recipe said it would be sticky and showed how to use fast, slap and fold motions to prevent the dough from sticking to your hands much, but my dough was so wet that I couldn't even scoop it up. I added some flour knowing that that would change the hydration level but having to do it just to work with the dough. Anyway, after much frustration and overworking the dough, I got a toothy pizza crust with little air and was too dense- edible but not great.

Today, Following a recipe for baguette, after the first rise AGAIN I ended up with a gloppy mess that is unworkable.
Does the brand of all-purpose flour make a difference in hydration? Both recipes said it could be substituted for bread flour, and I do add vital gluten.
Does house humidity make a big difference? I live on the east coast of the U.S. where humidity is always unbearable.
Any pointers would be appreciated.


You need to use the correct flour for the application.



Stop using the vital gluten, it is not necessary.



Stop thinking of flours ad all-purpose flour, bread flour, or cake flour. These are terms that are made up of the retail market.

But there are no standards for these terms. So they’re essentially meaningless.

Understanding flour protein content AND the treatment of the flour will better help you understand how to select the right flour for the product.

Also, don't be afraid to adjust the water in a recipe. It's best to work out the baker’s percentages of a recipe before you start to know the hydration levels. If a bread recipe has 70% hydration, that's pretty high. So you will need a high protein flour of at least 12.5%.



Flour is made by separating the wheat kernel from the germ, endosperm, and bran. Each section is milled separately, then the flours are blended to make various flours.



Different varieties of wheat may be blended to produce flours that perform to specification. Artisan bakers often work with millers to develop flours for a specific application. But quality blends are available from mills like Cental Milling.

Extraction rate refers to the percentage of germ, bran, and endosperm used in the flour.


If 100% of the wheat kernel is extracted, all of the germ, bran, and endosperm are used. In retail, this would be called whole wheat or wholemeal flour.



“All-purpose” flour has less bran and germ flour. It is about 73% extraction since only 73% of the wheat kernel is used.



“Cake” and “pastry” flour have almost no bran and germ. They’re about 40% - 55% extraction.



Whole wheat flour: 100% flour. Unbleached. Low rise. Very high water absorption, up to 100% hydration. Produces a heavy, dense crumb. Not suitable for pastry. Very short shelf life, due to germ and bran; use within 3 months of purchase.



All-purpose: approx 73% extraction. Bleached and unbleached in the US and some Asian countries; unbleached flour is banned in the UK, European Union, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and many other countries.



Unbleached flour has a lower rise and greater water absorption rate than bleached flour.



Protein content varies significantly between 10% - 11.5% depending on the brand. The higher, the protein content, the more bran and germ the flour contains. The higher the protein content, the more water absorption.



A brand like King Arthur all-purpose flour is unbleached, with 11.7% protein. This flour will absorb significantly more water than a brand like Gold Medal, Pillsbury, or store brands. It produced a coarse crumb, darker color, and lower rise due to a higher extraction rate and is unbleached.


King Arthur is good for rolls, quick bread, some bread, drop cookies, and biscotti-more hearty applications. This is not flour for delicate pie crusts, tarts, cakes, or pastries.

Gold Medal, Pillsbury, and store brands are bleached with 10.5% protein content. It absorbs less water. It produces a higher rise; softer, lighter crumb. These flours are more suited for cake, shortbread, pie crust, tarts, pastry, cookies, and more delicate applications.

Bread flour: approximately 73% extraction. 12.5% - 14% protein. Unbleached. High water absorption. Medium to medium-high rise due to extraction rate. suitable for pizza, bread, and some rolls. Not suitable for cookies, crusts, cakes, or pastries.



Cake flour: 45% extraction. Bleached flour, so true cake flour is not available in countries with a ban on bleached flour. Very high rise. Produces a very fine crumb. Low-protein flour is not suitable for cookies, bread, and rolls.

Pastry flour: 55% extraction. Low water absorption. Low protein makes it good for wafers, tart shells, and pastries. Not suitable for drop cookies, rolls, quick bread, rolls, bread.

The type of yeast and time the dough is fermented will affect the dough quality as well.

Instant dry yeast is formulated to be mixed directly into dry ingredients. No “proofing” is required for use. The granules are very small and dissolve easily. Instant dry yeast reproduces very quickly. It produces a good first rise, but a mediocre second rise.
Yeast is a living organism. It can over-develop, plow through its food source, then die off (what we call “gassing out”)


Active dry yeast is a different strain of yeast from instant dry yeast. The granules are larger, so it dissolves slower; it takes longer for the yeast to reproduce.



For these reasons, Active dry yeast is best dissolved before adding it to the dough. However, Active dry yeast can be added directly to dry ingredients. It will just take longer to work.



What people call “proofing” is actually dissolving yeast, which is done with Active dry yeast for faster results.



The only time yeast needs to be “proofed” is when there is concern it is dead.



The temperature of the finished dough (the temperature of the dough after it is mixed) is very important the temperature determines the rate of fermentation (yeast development).



It’s critical to control the rate of fermentation. As a general rule, finish the temperature above 75°F.



There is a formula to control the finish temperature. It’s called Desired Dough Temperature (DDT).
 
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Norcalbaker59, Thank you for the comprehensive "evidence-based" response.
I got my recipe from a YouTube video done by a well-respected retired baker in the U.K. He suggested that bread flour is best, but A.P. is just fine also. I was unaware that there were no standards for these labels. The current flour I am using is 10% protein (30g serving=10g protein) which you suggest is low compared to 11.7% of King Arthur. I have 10lbs of store brand to use, so I'm going to adjust the H2O down until I achieve the proper hydration. My bread tends to be "heavy" and dense, which is why I fortify them with gluten, which I assumed also increased the protein content of my flour, but further research has shown me that they are dense most likely b/c I was not kneading the dough properly (not creating a "skin" for the rise to push against). I tell people that cooking is an art but baking is chemistry. I'm realizing that I need to read up on the chemistry
 
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Ingredients vary by country. When you use a recipe from another country you need to know the specification of the ingredients, then make the appropriate conversions.
Domestic wheat in the UK is naturally very low in protein. What is referred to as plain flour has a protein content of 9% protein, the equivalent to cake flour in the United States.


However, UK flour is unbleached, so it will not rise as much as the bleached flour cake in US, and will absorb more water, so cake flour is not an appropriate substitute. Pastry flour is also not an appropriate substitution in most applications either.

Adjustment of hydration is a better approach.

UK domestic wheat is not suitable for bread. The wheat cultivated for wheat in the UK is imported, mainly from Canada and Australia.

Canadian wheat is very high in protein. The all-purpose flours are in the 13% range; bread flours in the 14% - 15% range, which is significantly higher than the US all-purpose and bread flours.

So UK strong flours from Canadian varieties will be equivalent to a high gluten flour in the US.
Since protein levels affect absorption rate, the hydration levels will be off when a baker in the US uses American flour with a UK, Canadian recipe, and vice versa.

It’s not just flour specification, but other ingredients as well. Eggs in the US and Canada are graded differently than the UK and European Union.


Large eggs in the US and Canada are equivalent to a medium egg in UK/EU. Since egg is both a source of protein and water, the difference in ratio is an issue.

British Imperial and US volume measurements are also different.

US 1 oz = 29.57mL
UK 1 oz = 28.41mL

US N/A
UK 1 gill = 5 oz = 142.07mL

US 1 cup = 8 oz = 236mL
UK 1 cup = 8.45 oz = 250 mL

US 1 pint = 16 oz = 473.18mL
UK 1 pint = 20 oz = 568.28mL

US 1 quart = 32 oz = 946.36mL
UK 1 quart = 40 oz = 1.137L

US 1 gallon = 128 oz = 3.785L
UK 1 gallon = 160 oz = 4.546L

===================

The reason you do not add vital gluten to flour is there’s no way to know the gluten level after you added the vital gluten. The mill tests the flour for moisture, protein, and ash. They know the wheat varieties, and treatment they blended to the flour. 're mill created flour with certain characteristics that will perform within certain parameters. When you add vital gluten you throw those parameters off completely. And you have no idea what you created.

A baker should select the correct protein level flour for the application.


Not developing the gluten in dough is probably the second common cause of dense bread, followed by improper fermention and shaping. The forming a skin on the dough has to do with shaping.

The most common cause of dense bread is kneading with flour. but more on that in a minute.


The first thing to understand about bread dough is there is NO gluten in wheat flour.

Wheat flour contains two protein molecules: glutenin and gliadin.

Glutenin and gliadin must bind with a water molecule AND be agitated to form gluten.
  • Glutenin is the larger of the two protein molecules; it gives dough strength and elasticity (ability to hold its shape)
  • Gliadin is very sticky gives dough extensiblity (ability to stretch)

If there is not enough agitation after the protein molecules bind with the water, gluten will not develop. Agitation does not have to be rigorous, just consist in the method used.

The main of heavy dense bread is adding flour during kneading. Adding flour to the work surface changes the baker’s percentage flour to water (hydration). It also adds dry flour to a mixed hydrated dough. Remember, there is no gluten in flour, the glutenin and gliadin molecules must bind with a water molecule to create gluten.

When flour and water is mixed, the free water molecules immediately begin to form those bonds. Adding dry flour to work surface increased flour to water ratio AND disrupts that water bonding process. All the water was intended to bind with the flour in the recipe; there is very little free water in the dough after the initial mixing. Now additional dry flour that is being forced into the dough from the work surface, competing with what's left of that free water in the dough. Most bakers add
the equivalent to 1/2 to 1 cup extra flour (up to 120g) to the work surface. All that extra flour has significantly less water available in the dough. And it's hyrating at a different rate than the dough. The result is a gummy, dense, heavy bread.

Below are a few resources for bread making that will help you better understanding flour, mixing, kneading, shaping, and baking.

Selecting the appropriate flour, keeping the dough in the ratios you started with, proper mixing, fermentation, shaping, and baking are all required for great bread. While bread is simple simple in its list of ingredients, the making of it is complex. Baking is a chemical reaction of ingredients to time and temperature.



UNDERSTAND There’s no single brand or type of flour for baking.



Look at Central Millings flour specifications. Here's an example. Start thinking of flour in terms of specifications.


Example:

Product Specifications

Protein / 11.5%
Ash / 0.60%
Varieties / Organic Hard Red Winter & Hard Red Spring Wheat
Treatment / Malted with Organic Malted Barley Flour



Understanding the specifications:



Protein: Protein content refers to levels of glutenin and gliadin. Ask yourself how much strength and elasticity do you need for the product you want to make? This is where you start.



Ash: Ash is the mineral content of the flour. The higher the ash content, the higher the protein content. This is number relates back to the milling. Remember the wheat kernel is separated into bran, germ, and endosperm, then

milled separately, then blended together to make the different flours. More bran and germ mean more nutritional value, but it also affects performance (low rise, heavy dense product, coarse crumb). The miller wants to control the amount of non-endosperm parts in flour to ensure a consistent product.



The endosperm is almost pure starch; the flour has exception performance characteristics (high rise, soft and fine crumb). So they want a very clean separation from the germ and bran. The ash content tells the miller the level of contamination of non-endosperm levels in the endosperm flour.



Do you want a lower protein and ash flour? if you’re going to make a rustic, roasted vegetable tart, you don’t necessarily want a low protein, low ash flour. You want the a flour with some body and strength. But for a delicate fresh berry fruit tart, this wouldn’t want to use a flour with these specifications.



Varieties: Hard red winter wheat is a higher protein wheat than spring wheat.

By blending two varieties of wheat the miller is able to create a flour with certain characteristics. Central Mills uses Yecora Rojo in this blend. Rojo is an exceptional wheat for bread, noted for flavor and color. It's also not a bucky flour (does not have too much elasticity)

You may not know the specific varieties of wheat in a brand, but experimenting will show you the characteristics and flavor of its flavor. I know Central Milling and King Arthur make a similar flour in the 11.5% range. Both are unbleached. Both are malted. I use the Central Milling in many applications. But when it comes to my biscotti, I only use the King Arthur. I want certain characteristics in my biscotti. I can’t get them from the Central Milling flour.



Treatment: a flour treatment is any treatment agent, dough conditioner, chemical treatment, and/or ingredient added to the flour to improve baking functionality. The most common treatment is malted barley flour. If you look at the back of your flour bag, it will most likely contain malted barley flour. Malted barley aides browning during baking. In fremenstion, malted barley triggers the enzymatic activity necessary to convert the starch in flour to simple sugar to feed the yeast.



Maturing flour: potassium bromate or ascorbic acid is added to flour used for pizza, bread, bagels for improved crumb, rise, bite.



Bleaching: whiten; create fine crumb; exceptional rise; only way to create cake flour



Enrichment: vitamins, iron, and folic acid are added to flour since the process of milling flour strips it of nutrients.







https://centralmilling.com/store/





Perfect Loaf is a good place to learn how to make bread in America. Maurizio finally wrote a bread book. Its on pre-order. I don't buy many books, but I pre-ordered his book.



https://www.theperfectloaf.com/new-baker-start-here/





Bake with Jack is a UK baker. But his tutorial videos on mixing, kneading, and shaping are excellent for the beginner. Most cookbooks and bakers, even professional bakers use flour, lots of flour to knead. This is wrong.



Jack’s tutorial demostrates the proper way to knead dough without flour.



 
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I spent some time reading up on Glutenin and gliadin and have a better understanding of the process of gluten evolution now.
I have watched Jack's videos before, I like his video on "kneading in real time" as he doesn't cut to a finished product, but shows the entire evolution of the dough in real time.
I'm going to use these tips and make a loaf over the weekend.

How does using a Poolish affect the amount of kneading? It seems an overnight cool stay in the refridgerator would be similar to kneading only a much slower time...
 
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I spent some time reading up on Glutenin and gliadin and have a better understanding of the process of gluten evolution now.
I have watched Jack's videos before, I like his video on "kneading in real time" as he doesn't cut to a finished product, but shows the entire evolution of the dough in real time.
I'm going to use these tips and make a loaf over the weekend.

How does using a Poolish affect the amount of kneading? It seems an overnight cool stay in the refridgerator would be similar to kneading only a much slower time...

I’m glad you found Jack’s video helpful.



Most of the information on baking in cookbooks and on incorrect.



The best resources are Jeffrey Hamelman's book on Bread; Michele Suas’ Advanced Bread and Pastry; and for understanding the science of ingredient--it's NOT a recipe book, Paula Figoni’s How Baking Works.



Gluten development depends on the percentage of hydration and the glutenin and gliadin content in the flour.



A high-hydration dough (=/>80%) cannot be kneaded. Gluten is developed using alternate forms of agitation.



Stretch & Fold

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/guides/how-to-stretch-and-fold-sourdough/



French Method (aka slap & fold)






Rubaud method





A poolish does not change the hydration ratios. It's fermented at room temperature, not in the refrigerator.



A poolish is made from a percentage of water and flour in the formula, a portion of the total of water and flour is to be used for the finished product.



Typically 20% – 80% of the water from the formula is used. A poolish is a 1:1 ratio.



For example, say you have a formula with 68% hydration. You might then use about 30% of the water in the poolish. So 38% of the water would be reserved for the main dough. So roughly 44% of the water in the total formula would be used in the poolish.



Poolish is 1:1 so the flour has to be an equal amount.

Flour 30%

Water 30%

Yeast: varies*



Main Dough has then adjusted accordingly:

Flour 70% (total flour 100% in the formula)

Water 38% (total water 68% in the formula)

Salt 1.5%



How quickly the gluten develops depends on the percentage of glutenin and gliadin and hydration. A lower glutenin and gliadin flour with lower hydration (55% - 60%) will develop gluten faster than flour with higher glutenin and gliadin levels.

You should note though that and percentage of yeast, and time and temperature of fermentation will affect the quality of the dough. A preferment that is over-fermented will destroy the gluten in the dough. If added to the main dough, it will produce a weak slack dough.





Yeast: a poolish is fermented at room temperature; to control the acidity and quality of the preferment, yeast is adjusted based on the time the poolish is fermented.



Dry yeasts

15 hrs: 0.03% – 0.08%

3-8 hrs: 0.23% – 0.33%



Fresh

15 hrs: 0.1%

6-8 hrs: 0.7%

3 hrs: 1.5%
 
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Norcalbaker59, I'll say that most information in cookbooks on breadmaking is wrong, AND much of what is online is wrong...I'll say that when I see "Flour your work surface" I now move on to a new recipe. I am currently making a loaf, I have a granite countertop and stretch/fold the dough on the empty counter. It sure sticks for the first few minutes, but with my dough scraper and patience, after the 8 min kneading is done, nothing sticks to my hands or the countertop. I'll post how this loaf turns out.​

 
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Norcalbaker59, I'll say that most information in cookbooks on breadmaking is wrong, AND much of what is online is wrong...I'll say that when I see "Flour your work surface" I now move on to a new recipe. I am currently making a loaf, I have a granite countertop and stretch/fold the dough on the empty counter. It sure sticks for the first few minutes, but with my dough scraper and patience, after the 8 min kneading is done, nothing sticks to my hands or the countertop. I'll post how this loaf turns out.​


And it’s not just bread. Learning not to use flour or very little of it on the work surface for everything is a big step in learning to bake correctly.

When learning to make laminated dough, art instructor did not allow us to have any bench flour. He had a small cup of flour.

He walked around the kitchen and threw a pinch of flour on each bench. and when I say a pinch of flower, I am not exaggerating. It was the quivalent to a teaspoon.

If, we needed any more flour we had to raise our hand. He’d come over and look at our dough, and tell us what we were doing wrong in the rolling that required us to need more flour. Mainly stretching and
tearing the dough; over-heating the dough and making it sticking.

I can roll most any dough with TBSP of flour or less now.
 
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Norcalbaker59

After following your suggestions, reading up on gluten production, and using a "Bake with Jack" recipe, I made an incredible loaf of bread. Thank you SO MUCH for all of your help...I was certainly off in the wrong direction. I love cooking and rarely use a recipe (cooking is an art) but with baking, it is certainly science NOT art! Thanks again!!!
 
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Norcalbaker59

After following your suggestions, reading up on gluten production, and using a "Bake with Jack" recipe, I made an incredible loaf of bread. Thank you SO MUCH for all of your help...I was certainly off in the wrong direction. I love cooking and rarely use a recipe (cooking is an art) but with baking, it is certainly science NOT art! Thanks again!!!

Congratulations! So glad to hear you found success!
Baking and cooking are chemical reactions. The more you understand the science and the ingredients, the better you are able to adapt your ingredients, equipment, and tools.

But don't fret the failures. Failure is your greatest teacher. I’ve learned so much about baking from analyzing my failures.

As you learn more about the science of baking, you will begin to do the same.

Happy baking.
 

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