Pâte sablée crumbles easily after baking

[LSY]

My pâte sablée (sweetened pastry dough) crumbles too easily after baking. It can't hold its shape just falls apart after slicing. What could be the issue?

Recipe:
Mix 350g softened butter with 140g of icing sugar until pale yellow. Add 50g of egg yolks, mix until combined. Add 280g of cake flour, mix until combined then add 50g ground almonds and 4g salt and mix until combined. Spread a layer of batter at bottom of tart tin. Add a layer of prune paste then cover with rest of batter. Rest tart in fridge for 1 hour then bake in preheated oven at 140 degree celsius for 45 mins.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

It’s probably the fat and flour.


Your recipe has the following ratios:


1.0 flour

1.25 butter

0.50 icing sugar

0.18 egg

0.18 ground almonds

0.01 salt


That’s an extraordinary amount of butter. Butter isn’t just for flavor, it is also used to inhibit gluten development.


The ground almonds is traditionally added to pate sucree to interfere with gluten development as well.


Icing sugar contains cornflour as an anti-caking agent. Cornflour will inhibit gluten development.


Cake flour is milled from a low protein soft wheat and is bleached. Given bleached flour is banned in Europe and Australia, it is not milled and sold in these countries. So if you are using the so called cake flour substitution of adding cornflour to plain flour, then the cornflour will further inhibit gluten development.



This is Pierre Herme’s Pate Sucree recipe.

150g softened butter

85g of icing sugar

50g of egg yolks

250g all purpose flour

30g ground almonds

2 pinches fleur de sel salt

1/4 vanilla bean


His flour to butter ratio is significantly less. So it will not undermine the strength of the flour. He also uses all purpose flour.


1.0 all purpose flour

.60 butter

.34 icing sugar

.20 egg

.12 almond flour

 

[Becky]

Good advice above ^

Welcome to the forum @LSY!

 

[LSY]

Thanks for your advice Norcalbaker59! I read on the internet that there is a slight difference between pate sucree and sablee being sablee has a higher butter content. Is it correct? You recommended Pierre Herman's pate sucree recipe hence i did some search and found supposedly his pate sablee recipe from a blog. It is almost identical to his pate sucree. Wondering what's the actual difference between the two?

140g unsalted butter, diced and at room temperature
75g icing sugar
2g salt
25g ground almonds
seeds of 1/2 vanilla pod
1 egg
250g pastry flour

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hello LSY,

Trust me, when it comes to tart dough, we are all confused.

The Herme’ Pate Sucrée I listed is from my copy of his cookbook, “Pierre Herme Pastries.” Herme lists the recipe as “Pate Sucrée; and he uses it for several pastries.

I would call the recipe you found online a pate sucrée

But no doubt I’m confused as well
given bakers more often than not interchangeably use the terms pate sablée, pate sucree and pate brisée.

This is my understanding of the different tart doughs. I can’t say it’s correct. But just what I’ve been taught and observed.

Pate Sucree: suited for sweet desserts. It contains 1) icing sugar, not granulated sugar; 2) more sugar than Pate Brisee; 3) contains wheat and almond flours.


Pate Sablée is also suited to sweet desserts. It contains 1) granulated sugar; 2) it contains as much sugar as Pate Sucrée, just not icing sugar; 3) it does NOT contain almond flour.


Pate Brisée can be used interchangeably for savory (e.g., quiche) or for a sweet dessert. Pate Brisée differs in that 1) granulated sugar is used only in sweet applications; 2) contains more butter; 3) does NOT contain almond flour.

I only have one French pastry cookbook with both a Pate Sucrée and a Pate Brisée. The Brisée dough only contains 20 grams granulated sugar to 250 grams of flour. That’s about 80% less sugar than a Pate Sucrée. And the Pate Brisée contains no almond flour .

The Sucrée recipe in the book is made with icing sugar and a mix of almond flour. It also has a lot more sugar than the Brisée. The pastry chef was French trained, and served as a recipe tester for Pierre Herme.

In the Tartine cookbook, Elizabeth Pruitt includes a Pate Sablée. It contains granulated sugar, but no almond flour.

I have another cookbook that is actually more a textbook, with recipes from the top European pastry chefs, including Herme. Since it’s a textbook, it’s organized differently. All of the basic recipes that a pastry chef should know are at the back of the book. No sweet tart dough is listed in the basic recipes sections.

Instead, a half a dozen tart recipes in the book use a Pate Sablée; like Prueitt’s Pate Sablée recipe they contain granulated sugar but no almond flour. Where Pruitt’s recipe has a 40% sugar to flour ratio, the master pastry chefs’ book used a 30% sugar to flour ratio.

Elizabeth Pruitt, who studied for a number of years in France, just adds to the confusion by including a “flaky tart dough.” Which is really a pie crust. She uses the rough puff pastry method of working in the butter. Which is now my go to method for pie crust as it produces an incredibly flaky crust.

So what I was taught seems to be supported in the French pastry cookbooks I own. But like you, I see the tart dough terms used interchangeably. So I can’t say for sure what is correct.

I hope I haven’t confused you further.

 

[LSY]

Thank you for your explanation. I guess there's no correct answer

 

[retired baker]

My pâte sablée (sweetened pastry dough) crumbles too easily after baking. It can't hold its shape just falls apart after slicing. What could be the issue?

Recipe:
Mix 350g softened butter with 140g of icing sugar until pale yellow. Add 50g of egg yolks, mix until combined. Add 280g of cake flour, mix until combined then add 50g ground almonds and 4g salt and mix until combined. Spread a layer of batter at bottom of tart tin. Add a layer of prune paste then cover with rest of batter. Rest tart in fridge for 1 hour then bake in preheated oven at 140 degree celsius for 45 mins.

Yeh, theres the problem, powdered sugar. Wrong sugar.
Sable is granulated sugar.
I wouldn't make a tart with a cookie batter.

Sable lacks plasticity to use as a tart mold liner, it will crack and break before you can get it into the mold.
It will crack apart as you try to roll it.
Thats why they make sucre.

if you roll out pate a sucre and line the mold then fill with your hybrid sablee batter it will hold together.

Watch this french guy line a mold with sablee, it works great until he puts it in the mold, then it breaks before he can get it in. Ends up being a patch job, pate a sucre doesn't do this.
Each dough has specific properties we need for the job at hand.

 

[Chouquette]

The only difference between pate sucrée and pate sablée is the technique you use to make the dough, not the ingredients that are used. Pate sucrée is made using the creaming method and pate sable is made using the sablée method. Either dough can have icing sugar or caster sugar, ground nuts or no ground nuts, whole eggs or egg yolks or whole eggs and no yolks.

For example, Pierre Hermès recipe for pate sucrée contains icing sugar egg yolks and almond flour in addition to AP flour. Joel Robuchon’s recipe for pate sablée contains caster sugar whole eggs and almond flour. The creaming method gives you a dough that is closer knit so it’s a bit crisper and less delicate than a sable dough. Sablee dough has a sandy texture (sablée means sand in French) and is a bit more delicate. If you don’t overwork your dough, dock the bottom, you freeze the tart shell and bake from frozen, you shouldn’t have to blind bake your shell.

I personally prefer icing sugar as it dissolves instantly and gives you a silkier dough. Caster sugar is also fine but regular granulated sugar will lead to heartache. It dissolves slowly and usually when you rest the dough, leaving your dough sticky and hard to work with.

 

[chassis]

Unsweet dough using non-creaming method by hand

Unsweet dough using creaming method with stand mixer

Sweet dough using semi-creaming method with food processor

 

[Norcalbaker59]

The only difference between pate sucrée and pate sablée is the technique you use to make the dough, not the ingredients that are used. Pate sucrée is made using the creaming method and pate sable is made using the sablée method. Either dough can have icing sugar or caster sugar, ground nuts or no ground nuts, whole eggs or egg yolks or whole eggs and no yolks.

For example, Pierre Hermès recipe for pate sucrée contains icing sugar egg yolks and almond flour in addition to AP flour. Joel Robuchon’s recipe for pate sablée contains caster sugar whole eggs and almond flour. The creaming method gives you a dough that is closer knit so it’s a bit crisper and less delicate than a sable dough. Sablee dough has a sandy texture (sablée means sand in French) and is a bit more delicate. If you don’t overwork your dough, dock the bottom, you freeze the tart shell and bake from frozen, you shouldn’t have to blind bake your shell.

I personally prefer icing sugar as it dissolves instantly and gives you a silkier dough. Caster sugar is also fine but regular granulated sugar will lead to heartache. It dissolves slowly and usually when you rest the dough, leaving your dough sticky and hard to work with.

Unfortunately that’s not correct. Nichele Suas, who foundef the San Francisco Baking Institute, which is one of the most respected pastry schools in the country, Says either creaming or sanding method can be used for pate sucree.

students come from all over the world to attend the Institute. He is the master baker other master bakers turn to for help in setting up their bakeries and troubleshooting problems that they have in production. His client list reads like the Who’s Who of bakers in the world.

Suas is French. He came up through the pprenticeship system in France.

Suas is French. He came up through the apprenticeship system in France.

His textbook, used in his classes, states that the creaming method or sanding method is used.

This is why I say it's very confusing-- everybody has a different approach to these doughs.


These are doughs in which you cannot say there is an absolute tradition.

 

[Chouquette]

Norcal baker, you are absolutely right. I stand corrected. You can use both methods with a pate sucrée. It is the pate sablée that typically uses the sablage method. I would say that the creaming method is most often used with pate sucrée because it is less fragile than the pate sablée. It is also more fitted to commercial use because you can make it in a large capacity mixer with room temperature butter. In the pastry shop where I am a pastry chef. We leave our butter at room temperature so that it’s ready for pate sucrée, butter blocks for viennoiserie and butter cream.

Your statement that pate sucrée cannot contain icing sugar is not correct. Pate Sucrée and Pate Sablée can both be made with icing sugar or granulated sugar.

Your statement that pate sablée cannot contain ground nuts is likewise not correct. Both Robuchon and Hermes use ground almonds in their pate sablée. I believe it is more common for pate sablée to not include nuts but if you want a super delicate and crumbly dough then using the sablage method along with some ground nuts in place of flour would be the way to go.

Perhaps at some time the rules about the ingredients and method for these doughs were more rigid but not so much anymore. It’s like mousse like fillings. Is a ganache montée or s crème chantilly mixed with chocolate a mousse. Not according to many old treatises. However, tell that to the waiter or the pastry shop you’re visiting.
So yes, it’s confusing and can be frustrating for those who like concrete definitions (that would be me).

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Norcal baker, you are absolutely right. I stand corrected. You can use both methods with a pate sucrée. It is the pate sablée that typically uses the sablage method. I would say that the creaming method is most often used with pate sucrée because it is less fragile than the pate sablée. It is also more fitted to commercial use because you can make it in a large capacity mixer with room temperature butter. In the pastry shop where I am a pastry chef. We leave our butter at room temperature so that it’s ready for pate sucrée, butter blocks for viennoiserie and butter cream.

Your statement that pate sucrée cannot contain icing sugar is not correct. Pate Sucrée and Pate Sablée can both be made with icing sugar or granulated sugar.

Your statement that pate sablée cannot contain ground nuts is likewise not correct. Both Robuchon and Hermes use ground almonds in their pate sablée. I believe it is more common for pate sablée to not include nuts but if you want a super delicate and crumbly dough then using the sablage method along with some ground nuts in place of flour would be the way to go.

Perhaps at some time the rules about the ingredients and method for these doughs were more rigid but not so much anymore. It’s like mousse like fillings. Is a ganache montée or s crème chantilly mixed with chocolate a mousse. Not according to many old treatises. However, tell that to the waiter or the pastry shop you’re visiting.
So yes, it’s confusing and can be frustrating for those who like concrete definitions (that would be me).

Well this is interesting. And this got me thinking maybe it’s a European thing with the nuts. So I checked three textbooks. CIA (American) doesn’t use any nuts; Eddy Van Damme (he’s European) has two recipes, one with nuts, one with coconut; Suas has nuts. I have a book with formulas from 14 of the top pastry chefs out of Europe on the level of Pierre Herme. In fact Herme is featured in the book.

And it’s a mix, some nuts, some not. But CIA (American) is a no nuts. And no nuts on all their crusts. Americans are notorious for changing things. So it could be they flip the scrip on this.

I’m glad you brought this to my attention.


I used to do a lot of tarts. It was one of the first things I ever baked. There was a cafe in Berkeley, California that did a riff on a bakewell tart. Instead of jam, they did a layer of chocolate between the crust and frangipane. They only filled it 3/4 with frangipane. When cooled, it was topped with fresh berries in season. Then glazed. They only offered it in season when berries were at their best. That tart was to die for.

I baked dozens of tarts trying to replicate it. It became the dessert I was known for some time.

I’m gonna have to try one with nuts in the shell.

 

[chassis]

Walnut sableé crust with food processor method

Sugar dough with almond meal with food processor method

 

[Chouquette]

Well this is interesting. And this got me thinking maybe it’s a European thing with the nuts. So I checked three textbooks. CIA (American) doesn’t use any nuts; Eddy Van Damme (he’s European) has two recipes, one with nuts, one with coconut; Suas has nuts. I have a book with formulas from 14 of the top pastry chefs out of Europe on the level of Pierre Herme. In fact Herme is featured in the book.

And it’s a mix, some nuts, some not. But CIA (American) is a no nuts. And no nuts on all their crusts. Americans are notorious for changing things. So it could be they flip the scrip on this.

I’m glad you brought this to my attention.


I used to do a lot of tarts. It was one of the first things I ever baked. There was a cafe in Berkeley, California that did a riff on a bakewell tart. Instead of jam, they did a layer of chocolate between the crust and frangipane. They only filled it 3/4 with frangipane. When cooled, it was topped with fresh berries in season. Then glazed. They only offered it in season when berries were at their best. That tart was to die for.

I baked dozens of tarts trying to replicate it. It became the dessert I was known for some time.

I’m gonna have to try one with nuts in the shell.

And the name of that book……..? Sounds useful. Are you still working?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

And the name of that book……..? Sounds useful. Are you still working?

i’m not sure which book you’re referring to. I have Culinary Institute of America‘s baking and pastry textbook by Wiley. I live down the road from CIA, so take classes there and buy directly from them. but you should be able to order it from Wiley.

I have Suas as his textbook, you can order that from the San Francisco Institute of Baking.

Eddy Van Damme‘s is also a textbook, that one you can actually get on Amazon, On Baking

The book that features the master pastry chefs is a European book that is out of print.

 

[Chouquette]

The European book featuring master pastry chef’s is the one that interests me. What is the name?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

An English translation was done under Konemann under Eurodelicrs Europe‘s MasterChef series. But it’s out of print.

if you can find their dessert book or a pastry book it will be something close to it.

Edit: oh and just be aware that it’s not like a American cookbook. It doesn’t have detailed instructions. It assumes you know the fundamentals. kind of like a baking binder, gives you the quantities and five lines of instructions.

 

[Chouquette]

is this it?

Or this one?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

is this it?




View attachment 4455

Or this one?
View attachment 4456

That pastries book is probably as close to it as you will get. I’ve seen that book. I will tell you it is vague on instructions.

Also keep in mind the differences between American and European products. European flour is unbleached. French flour is milled differently. French butter is cultured. Butter fat is higher in European butter. eggs are larger than American eggs. I posted a chart on a thread here the other day that had a question about jumbo eggs.

Milk is also different in Europe. You’re a professional baker so you’ll use higher fat cream anyway so that’s not gonna be a problem.

Trying to think of what else was different when I was there...since the milk is different the cheeses are different. So things like American made mascarpone will be different from the Italian. Right now I can’t find any imported Italian mascarpone anywhere.

 

[Chouquette]

Im assuming everything is scaled? It minimizes differences the differences in amounts but not texture and flavor. There’s a reason that Dominic Ansel imports flour and butter from France.

I have not been able to find mascarpone Imported from Italy either, nor sheeps milk ricotta. It’s extremely frustrating. All I can find is mascarpone from Vermont Creamery and BelGioso. Neither has the texture or flavor of the imported Italian. We use the BelGioso at the shop where I work since it’s better four our purposes.