Pricing dilemma

[LamsMekk]

Any advice/opinions would be great!

I’ve been moving towards selling doughnuts but I’m getting ridiculously frustrated because people aren’t really willing to pay more than £1/£1.25 each.

This is the same price you pay at chain stores such as Gregga, Percy Ingle where the doughunts are mass produced in which case even 10p profit can workout to be millions by the end of month due to the sheer volume of doughnuts sold.

Mine are handmade and I really do put a lot of effort in. Also, as I’m not mass producing I’m not bulk buying ingredients which means that the cost is greater to myself.

If I sell the doughnuts for £1 each and factor in the fact that it takes me hours to make them then i would end up paying myself like £2 hour which is insane!

Does anyone have any price suggestions?

I have attached some pictures, the dark coloured ones are cinnamon sugar not burned!

Many thanks

 

[LamsMekk]

Please, doughnuts here aren’t as cheap as the US and Canada.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Please, doughnuts here aren’t as cheap as the US and Canada.

yes welcome to the world of the self-employed baker. That’s the problem, the consumer can’t separate you from the chains. And that’s why you have to do it through your marketing. You have to create the sense of exclusivity.

when you market your donuts you have to use terms like
“Handcrafted”
“Artisan”
“Small-batch”
“Made to order”
“Bespoke”
Look for at niche to fill. Maybe make a line of miniature donuts and market to children’s parties or baby showers or weddings for wedding dessert bars. You have to think about marketing to events not to individuals. You’re never gonna make any money marketing to individuals unless you’re a bakery with the store front.

 

[LamsMekk]

All of that is very true!!!!
And that’s a wonderful idea thanks!

 

[LamsMekk]

yes welcome to the world of the self-employed baker. That’s the problem, the consumer can’t separate you from the chains. And that’s why you have to do it through your marketing. You have to create the sense of exclusivity.

when you market your donuts you have to use terms like
“Handcrafted”
“Artisan”
“Small-batch”
“Made to order”
“Bespoke”
Look for at niche to fill. Maybe make a line of miniature donuts and market to children’s parties or baby showers or weddings for wedding dessert bars. You have to think about marketing to events not to individuals. You’re never gonna make any money marketing to individuals unless you’re a bakery with the store front.

Lots of ideas going around in my head now thanks!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Lots of ideas going around in my head now thanks!

I was at the restaurant supply store today. I don’t know if they have them in the UK, but most of our restaurant supply stores are open to the public. Those with a business license have accounts that allow for specail pricing; the general public pay a slightly higher price. But even the gerneral public can buy in bulk, which is always priced better. Because of COVID-19, there’s been flour and sugar shortages, so these prices are actually slightly higher than they have been in the past in my area.

You should look into restaurant supply sources. Even if you cannot use these quantities now, at least know where to source for the future.


50 lb sack of all purpose flour marketed under the store brand sells for $11.99 USD

25 lb sack of high gluten flour (strong flour) sells for $9.39 USD

25 lbs sack of King Arthur Flour, a top brand sells for $17.99 USD. At local grocery stores in my area, a 5lb sack of this brand sells for $5 - $7 depending on the retailer. So this is a good price.

50 lb sack of all purpose General Mills for $6.59. General Mills is an multinational mega corporation so they produce on a massive scale. That is why they can sell their flour for so cheap.

 

[LamsMekk]

I’ll have to check it out, flour wise I can’t bulk buy because I use that flour I showed you on the doughnut thread but I can look into it with regards to the other items.

Thanks a lot

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I’ll have to check it out, flour wise I can’t bulk buy because I use that flour I showed you on the doughnut thread but I can look into it with regards to the other items.

Thanks a lot

you can still bulk buy that type of flour. If they don’t package for restaurants, you can usually buy it by the case for less than individual bags. Contact the company and ask who their distributor is in the UK. And then contact their distributor. When bakers here started getting into artisan pizza, A lot of bakers were buying caputo tipo 00 flour in kilo bags by the case.

 

[LamsMekk]

Ok thanks.

Oh gosh I had my first real doughnut ‘disaster’ today .

I basically activated fresh yeast in 60mls of milk at 95F and then added this to the kitchen aid bowl. The recipe calls for 11grams of instant yeast but I prefer fresh as instant is usually, as you have told me, too excitable during the first proof.

I allowed the ingredients to mix together with the dough hook for around 1 minute and then took the dough out to hand knead. It was so odd because within literally 2 minutes the dough became very tough and was springing back very quickly. I persisted and continue to knead up until 8 minutes which I was reluctant to do as it felt so developed already but it just seemed far too quick to be possible.

I then allowed it to proof and it proofed in half the time that it usually takes. I can now smell a very slight alcohol smell which is something I have never smelt being.

I’ve left them at room temperature for the second proof as opposed to leaving them in a warm place as I’m sure more heat will only exacerbate the problem.

A failed bake is always so disheartening and disappointing!

 

[LamsMekk]

So the untrained eye would say ‘oh great doughnuts!’ but the trained eye can clearly see that these are a yeast disaster.

For some reason with the recipe that you gave me, I am able to achieve the white ring and a plump chubby doughnut. With this recipe the outcome has been flat and it’s incredibly frustrating!!!

I am not going to quit until I am able to ah achieve the white ring, and an airy, chubby, plump doughnut.


Your advice thus far has been amazing and anymore can offer regarding this would be much appreciated.

 

[LamsMekk]

 

[LamsMekk]

They’re a little dark also, today was an off day! They’re glazed

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ok thanks.

Oh gosh I had my first real doughnut ‘disaster’ today .

I basically activated fresh yeast in 60mls of milk at 95F and then added this to the kitchen aid bowl. The recipe calls for 11grams of instant yeast but I prefer fresh as instant is usually, as you have told me, too excitable during the first proof.

I allowed the ingredients to mix together with the dough hook for around 1 minute and then took the dough out to hand knead. It was so odd because within literally 2 minutes the dough became very tough and was springing back very quickly. I persisted and continue to knead up until 8 minutes which I was reluctant to do as it felt so developed already but it just seemed far too quick to be possible.

I then allowed it to proof and it proofed in half the time that it usually takes. I can now smell a very slight alcohol smell which is something I have never smelt being.

I’ve left them at room temperature for the second proof as opposed to leaving them in a warm place as I’m sure more heat will only exacerbate the problem.

A failed bake is always so disheartening and disappointing! ☹

yes you should always pay attention to the gluten development in the dough. You cannot go according to time. Dough is going to change from day today batch to batch.


And this is why DDT is so important in baking. And this is why bakers live and die by DDT. Time and temperature is everything It has such an incredible impact on the development of dough and batter. Learn DDT and start applying it.


i’ve mentioned Suas book many times. Here’s a page out of his book. You’ll see he mentions DDT.

Advanced Bread and Pastry

Advanced Bread & Pastry has a unique approach to providing advanced level concepts, techniques and formulas to those aspiring to be professional bakers and professional pastry chefs. Exquisite photographs are throughout to further inspire learners and professionals of the unlimited potential of...

books.google.com

 

[Norcalbaker59]

View attachment 3096View attachment 3096

your doughnuts are really gorgeous!!! When you first came to this site you couldn’t even make a batch— look how far you have come!! From nothing to professional doughnuts in like what, 6 weeks or so? Bravo!!!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

So the untrained eye would say ‘oh great doughnuts!’ but the trained eye can clearly see that these are a yeast disaster.

For some reason with the recipe that you gave me, I am able to achieve the white ring and a plump chubby doughnut. With this recipe the outcome has been flat and it’s incredibly frustrating!!!

I am not going to quit until I am able to ah achieve the white ring, and an airy, chubby, plump doughnut.


Your advice thus far has been amazing and anymore can offer regarding this would be much appreciated.

you’ll ever achieve it with his recipe. The problem is ratios. Baking is all science. His ratios are not suited to the type of flout you were using. It will never work unless you change the ratios.

And I’ve been waiting for you to come to that realization...

Developing as a baker means you don’t have to use other peoples recipe… You can deviate and go off on your own path. Your donuts are really incredible. You don’t have to stick to his recipe. You can now take your own path forward. Don’t be afraid to change his recipe. You made a comment about his recipe to me that is very telling go back and look at your comments. And make a change

 

[LamsMekk]

Why thank you!! That means a lot
You’re honestly like a baking mentor to me which I appreciate greatly as I would be stuck in limbo wondering where I’ve gone wrong! Even those Preppy kitchen cakes that I said were always baking overly moist and almost soggy, it was really frustrating me and I was so confused until you told me about the flour and moisture etc.

Because the dough felt very tough and was springing back when pressed, would you advise not kneading any further even if the dough has only been worked for a few minutes? It also, as I said, proofed in half the time it normally would. The yeast was out of control it was so bizarre.

Also, I don’t feel I’m ready to deviate from other people’s recipes yet until I do more research on the method for working out the correct ratios. Thank you for the link so I can get started on the research.

In the mean time, should I switch to a more basic all purpose flour? I’m supposed to be making more doughnuts tomorrow for a friend so I need to figure out where I went wrong with this recipe beforehand. Or else perhaps I should try a different one?

One thing I really need to do is learn flour. I know that protein content varies, but I also need to learn more in depth information about the flour in order to really understand the pros and cons are any particular flour in a given recipe.


And the infamous white ring!!!! It is my mission in life right now to improve my second proof so that the result is consistently and reliably a chubby, puffy doughnut with that beautiful ring every. Single. Time.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@LamsMekk

With Christine’s recipe you already have Perfection. What more can you ask for in a recipe? Nothing. Getting everything you want out of the doughnut is what’s important. So if you have the texture, the look, and flavor why are you messing with the recipe?


You need to take that recipe and lay out the baker’s percentages.

Do the research on the flour and find the protein and ash content. Also the variety of wheat. This is just in case that flour becomes unavailable you can find a replacement.

Then the proteinash and bakers percentages become your gold standard for yeast doughnuts. You still need to work out your DDT.

One of the most important thing you do as a baker is consistency. You can’t just willy-nilly change things around. If you want consistency you need to be consistent in everything you do.

Why are you using fresh yeast? There is no scientific evidence that fresh is better than active dry. There is a difference in performance of instant yeast and active dry, but not fresh and active dry. Even Michel Suas says its a myth that fresh is better than dry. Suas is French born and raised; started baking as an apprentice at the age of 14 in France. So if anyone is going to be skewed towards the traditions of baking it’s going to be Suas.

But if you want to change the type of yeast you we’re going to have to work things out from scratch. Whenever you change anything in your process it is going to change your dough.

The type of yeast will not affect how the gluten development. But did you adjust the liquid in your overall formula to account for the dissolved yeast in the dough?

yes you must always pay attention to the development of the gluten. And you must always pay attention to proofing. nothing is about time it’s about how the individual batch of dough is developing.

================

regarding the other recipe...ask yourself what you want to get out of continuing with it.

What is it you’re getting out of it? You’ve wasted your energy. You’ve wasted your time. You’ve wasted ingredients. You keep doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing is going to change about that recipe because the recipe does not work for your flour


The only way that recipe is going to work is for you to change the recipe.


And when you change the recipe it’s no longer his recipe, it’s yours.

So you have to make a decision,

You either create a recipe or you keep doing the same thing over and over again. You waste your time; you waste your energy; you waste your ingredients on his recipe. So what’s it going to be, make a recipe on your own or waste your money, time and energy on his recipe? Those are your two choices.

But I have to ask, if you have a recipe that works, why are you spending so much time and energy on another recipe that doesn’t work?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

The two most important aspects of professional baking are bakers percentages and DDT

Bakers percentages and DDT because they keep everything consistent. And that means you don’t change a thing. That means you walk into your kitchen every morning and you do the same thing over and over and over again.

You cannot go into your kitchen and change a single thing.

You failed because you changed something

You walked into your kitchen and you threw in fresh yeast. Thatbwas your mistake. You changed something and you got a different result. You cannot do that. If you want to make a change, you do that separate from your regular production.

Product Development is separate from customer production.

You do not experiment on your customer’s orders— If the product fails and you don’t have a product to deliver, you not only lose that order, but you lose that customer and you lose future business.

You must not experiment on your customers.

And you must learn the most important business lesson of all.

DO NOT CHANGE PERFECT RECIPES

 

[LamsMekk]

The two most important aspects of professional baking are bakers percentages and DDT

Bakers percentages and DDT because they keep everything consistent. And that means you don’t change a thing. That means you walk into your kitchen every morning and you do the same thing over and over and over again.

You cannot go into your kitchen and change a single thing.

You failed because you changed something

You walked into your kitchen and you threw in fresh yeast. Thatbwas your mistake. You changed something and you got a different result. You cannot do that. If you want to make a change, you do that separate from your regular production.

Product Development is separate from customer production.

You do not experiment on your customer’s orders— If the product fails and you don’t have a product to deliver, you not only lose that order, but you lose that customer and you lose future business.

You must not experiment on your customers.

And you must learn the most important business lesson of all.

DO NOT CHANGE PERFECT RECIPES

Oh I totally agree!!! These doughnuts were made for a family member so it’s fine. I wouldn’t have been is lax if it were for a customer.

You made a key point which was that the yeast ‘dissolved’ in the liquid which is why the final dough was dryer than normal I assume.

When using dry yeast, do I have to activate it first? If so, do I use liquid from the recipe or a separate portion of liquid?

 

[LamsMekk]

@LamsMekk

With Christine’s recipe you already have Perfection. What more can you ask for in a recipe? Nothing. Getting everything you want out of the doughnut is what’s important. So if you have the texture, the look, and flavor why are you messing with the recipe?


You need to take that recipe and lay out the baker’s percentages.

Do the research on the flour and find the protein and ash content. Also the variety of wheat. This is just in case that flour becomes unavailable you can find a replacement.

Then the proteinash and bakers percentages become your gold standard for yeast doughnuts. You still need to work out your DDT.

One of the most important thing you do as a baker is consistency. You can’t just willy-nilly change things around. If you want consistency you need to be consistent in everything you do.

Why are you using fresh yeast? There is no scientific evidence that fresh is better than active dry. There is a difference in performance of instant yeast and active dry, but not fresh and active dry. Even Michel Suas says its a myth that fresh is better than dry. Suas is French born and raised; started baking as an apprentice at the age of 14 in France. So if anyone is going to be skewed towards the traditions of baking it’s going to be Suas.

But if you want to change the type of yeast you we’re going to have to work things out from scratch. Whenever you change anything in your process it is going to change your dough.

The type of yeast will not affect how the gluten development. But did you adjust the liquid in your overall formula to account for the dissolved yeast in the dough?

yes you must always pay attention to the development of the gluten. And you must always pay attention to proofing. nothing is about time it’s about how the individual batch of dough is developing.

================

regarding the other recipe...ask yourself what you want to get out of continuing with it.

What is it you’re getting out of it? You’ve wasted your energy. You’ve wasted your time. You’ve wasted ingredients. You keep doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing is going to change about that recipe because the recipe does not work for your flour


The only way that recipe is going to work is for you to change the recipe.


And when you change the recipe it’s no longer his recipe, it’s yours.

So you have to make a decision,

You either create a recipe or you keep doing the same thing over and over again. You waste your time; you waste your energy; you waste your ingredients on his recipe. So what’s it going to be, make a recipe on your own or waste your money, time and energy on his recipe? Those are your two choices.

But I have to ask, if you have a recipe that works, why are you spending so much time and energy on another recipe that doesn’t work?

I think I will give Christines a go! I assumed it wouldn’t work so well with icing and glaze As it is incredibly light and fluffy but I will give it a go.


I really wish you would tell me what’s wrong with the other recipe , not knowing is killing me and I can’t figure it out myself! I have much more research to do first lol