Size of container for bulk fermentation

[EatPizza]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting on here. My question is...

Does the size of container effect fermentation? I know you need it large enough for the dough to at least double in size. Lets say you make a 10 pound batch and fermferment in a container meant for 50 pounds. Do container sizes need to be more approximate for the size of batch made? Does too much gas escape if the container is too large? Would it matter if you bulk fermented even a one pound batch in a 50 gallon container(not that you would, hehe). Just curious if keeping the container the right size so the dough is more snug and keeping the gas more tightly to the dough instead of having a lot of air space in the container. Sorry if that might sound confusing and I really appreciate the help!

Cheers!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting on here. My question is...

Does the size of container effect fermentation? I know you need it large enough for the dough to at least double in size. Lets say you make a 10 pound batch and fermferment in a container meant for 50 pounds. Do container sizes need to be more approximate for the size of batch made? Does too much gas escape if the container is too large? Would it matter if you bulk fermented even a one pound batch in a 50 gallon container(not that you would, hehe). Just curious if keeping the container the right size so the dough is more snug and keeping the gas more tightly to the dough instead of having a lot of air space in the container. Sorry if that might sound confusing and I really appreciate the help!

Cheers!

It’s not about escaping gas it’s about desired dough temperature (DDT).




The size of your container depends on how long you want your dough to ferment to maintain the DDT in the environment you are going to bench bulk fermented.

The yeast you use and amount depends on how long you ferment. Obviously the longer the fermentation period, the more the yeast development. Too much yeast will obviously eventually plow through their food source, and eventually die off.

The dough that is exposed to the surface walls of the container will cool/warm faster. So the more surface area the dough is in contact with the container, the faster the dough will change temperature.

The material the container is made of to some degree is also a factor in dough temperature. But most NSF food containers used for dough are usually polypropylene or polycarbonate, which don’t react significantly to temperature.

DDT for most doughs is in the range of 74°F - 77°F (23°C - 25°C); if you’re doing a bench bulk fermentation you just have to do some experimenting with containers to figure out what size works best in your kitchen with your dough(s).

If you are doing cold fermentation then obviously the dough that is in contact with the container surface is going to call dramatically faster than the dough in the center of the mass.



So you’re going to have more fermentation in the center of the dough. So you have to keep that in mind. Remember more surface mass contact with the container means faster cooling of the dough mass in the refrigerator. So if you want a long slow fermentation, and you want to cool the dough down fast from DDT, then use a larger container.

 

[EatPizza]

It’s not about escaping gas it’s about desired dough temperature (DDT).




The size of your container depends on how long you want your dough to ferment to maintain the DDT in the environment you are going to bench bulk fermented.

The yeast you use and amount depends on how long you ferment. Obviously the longer the fermentation period, the more the yeast development. Too much yeast will obviously eventually plow through their food source, and eventually die off.

The dough that is exposed to the surface walls of the container will cool/warm faster. So the more surface area the dough is in contact with the container, the faster the dough will change temperature.

The material the container is made of to some degree is also a factor in dough temperature. But most NSF food containers used for dough are usually polypropylene or polycarbonate, which don’t react significantly to temperature.

DDT for most doughs is in the range of 74°F - 77°F (23°C - 25°C); if you’re doing a bench bulk fermentation you just have to do some experimenting with containers to figure out what size works best in your kitchen with your dough(s).

If you are doing cold fermentation then obviously the dough that is in contact with the container surface is going to call dramatically faster than the dough in the center of the mass.



So you’re going to have more fermentation in the center of the dough. So you have to keep that in mind. Remember more surface mass contact with the container means faster cooling of the dough mass in the refrigerator. So if you want a long slow fermentation, and you want to cool the dough down fast from DDT, then use a larger container.

That makes perfect sense! Thank you so much for the response!

 

[EatPizza]

Norcalbaker59 if you could answer one more question for me.

I made a 10# batch of dough with bread flour(13.5% prrotein) at 75% hydration. Unfortunately, the Hobart mixer I used only had the paddle attachment, no hook. I mixed dough on low speed for 4 minutes, let rest for 10 minutes, and mixed on speed 2 for another 4 minutes, and let bench rest for 20 min, covered in mixing bowl. I bloomed my yeast in a couple cups of 85F degree water, and used ice cold water for the majority of my water weight. It was around 90F in our prep kitchen, and my final dough came out at 70F. I placed my dough in a large lexan, after benching 20min and placed in our fridge for 48hr bulk frement. I usually degass at the 24hr mark, but didn't this batch.

I was making a couple pan pizzas and portioned 25oz of dough per pan(which works perfect). I let that proof in each pan for 2 hours, shaping the dough every 30 min to eventually fit the pan and reach all 4 corners of the pan. At this point I'll parbake my dough for 5 minutes in the pans. I noticed this time that a higher spring took place in the center of my doughs, which pulls the dough away from all sides of the pans, and isn't snug to the pan walls.

The crumb was much tighter than I'm used too at 75% hydration, and with tbe higher spring in the center, it makes topping the pizza much harder, as the toppings slide from the center during final bake.

I usually only make 2# batches, but scaled up to 10# this batch.

I was thinking I overkneaded my dough using the paddle attachment, instead of the hook and maybe mixing for too long? I'm also thinking that not punching my dough down at the 24hr mark effected the higher spring as well during my par bake.

Any ideas on the higher than usual spring? I use 1.11% yeast in my recipe.

Thank you, again!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Norcalbaker59 if you could answer one more question for me.

I made a 10# batch of dough with bread flour(13.5% prrotein) at 75% hydration. Unfortunately, the Hobart mixer I used only had the paddle attachment, no hook. I mixed dough on low speed for 4 minutes, let rest for 10 minutes, and mixed on speed 2 for another 4 minutes, and let bench rest for 20 min, covered in mixing bowl. I bloomed my yeast in a couple cups of 85F degree water, and used ice cold water for the majority of my water weight. It was around 90F in our prep kitchen, and my final dough came out at 70F. I placed my dough in a large lexan, after benching 20min and placed in our fridge for 48hr bulk frement. I usually degass at the 24hr mark, but didn't this batch.

I was making a couple pan pizzas and portioned 25oz of dough per pan(which works perfect). I let that proof in each pan for 2 hours, shaping the dough every 30 min to eventually fit the pan and reach all 4 corners of the pan. At this point I'll parbake my dough for 5 minutes in the pans. I noticed this time that a higher spring took place in the center of my doughs, which pulls the dough away from all sides of the pans, and isn't snug to the pan walls.

The crumb was much tighter than I'm used too at 75% hydration, and with tbe higher spring in the center, it makes topping the pizza much harder, as the toppings slide from the center during final bake.

I usually only make 2# batches, but scaled up to 10# this batch.

I was thinking I overkneaded my dough using the paddle attachment, instead of the hook and maybe mixing for too long? I'm also thinking that not punching my dough down at the 24hr mark effected the higher spring as well during my par bake.

Any ideas on the higher than usual spring? I use 1.11% yeast in my recipe.

Thank you, again!

flour 100% malted or unmalted?
water 75%
yeast 1.11% what type?
salt ???
sugar??
oil??
did you add anything else


48 hr fermenation is a long time. salt should be around 1.75% - 2.25%. Is your flour malted? for a long fermentation you need food for your yeast, so a malted flour or add about 2% sugar. Both malted flour and sugar will aid browning of crust as well.

You seem to be handling your dough a lot. There isn’t any reason to shape and reshape.

Planetary mixers is not the ideal mixer for heavy doughs, especially doughs with yeast. Spiral mixers are the appropriate mixers for dough. But If using a planetary think you need to get a dough hook. Is there a reason for the mixing method? I don’t see a reason for it. Why are you blooming your yeast? You should just be able to put the water, salt and sugar in the bowl. Then add the flour and put the yeast on top of the flour to keep in from coming in direct contact with the salt and sugar. Then mix until the water is mixed into flour. Then add oil.


You really need to learn how to do DDT. I am not sure what the DDT should be for your pizza dough, but DDT is an absolute must for all yeast doughs. You need to find out the optimal DDT for your pizza dough. That is the most important thing. The humidity as well.

DDT looks daunting at first, but it’s pretty basic. You just need to know what temperature water to use. And you get that by:

• adding up the temperatures of the room, flour, preferment (if using), and friction factor from the mixer.
• multiply the dough temperature you want with the number of factors that add heat
• Then you subtract all the heat factors from desired dough temperature x factors

There are four major factors that contribute to the final temperature of your dough:

• Room temperature
• Flour temperature
• Preferment temperature
• Friction factor (mixing)
• Water temperature

The only factor that the baker can really control is the water (liquid) temperature.


Room temperature: for this example the room is 73°F
Preferment temp: no preferment is being used 0°F
Flour temperature: for this example the flour is 70°F
Friction factor: 8°F*

73 + 0 + 70 + 8 = 151



So if you want your dough to be 75°F, first add up all the factors that will add heat.

• Room temperature: for this example the room is 73°F
• Preferment temp: no preferment is being used 0°F
• Flour temperature: for this example the flour is 70°F
• Friction factor: 2°F*

73 + 0 + 70 + 8 = 151



Multiple the number of factors by the temperature you want the dough
You have 3 factors: room, flour, and friction
You want the dough to be 75°F

3 x 75 = 225


Subtract 225 from 151


225 - 151 = 74


Required water temperature: 74°F

===========================


*Friction Factor:

Spiral mixer: friction factor of 2°F (3.6C) per minute of mixing. So if you mix for 4 minutes, your friction factor is 8 (2 x 4 = 8)

Planetary mixer: planetary mixers generate considerable heat and there is no average fiction factor value for these mixers. You have to calculate the friction factor for each day’s work when using a planetary mixer. First dough of the day, mix the dough as usual for 1 minute on the second setting. Take the temperature and log. Then mix 1 minute and take the temperature. Friction factor on a planetary mixer is the degrees the dough temperature rises for every one minute of mixing on the second setting. So if the dough temperature increases by 3 degrees per minute and you mix for 4 minutes, your friction factor is 12 (3 x 4 = 12)


========================

I would strongly recommend you get a dough hook for your mixer. Also try other flours. Keith Giusto Bakery Supply in Petaluma CA supplies flour for the top bakeries in the nation. They are connected directly to the mills as they are a partner of Central Milling. They mill a pizza flour that was developed by Tony Gemignani. It’s a higher protein at 15%. It sounds like you have a lot of fundemantals that you still need to work out from equipment issues to formula and basic mixing techniques in order to put out a good product.

 

[EatPizza]

flour 100% malted or unmalted?
water 75%
yeast 1.11% what type?
salt ???
sugar??
oil??
did you add anything else


48 hr fermenation is a long time. salt should be around 1.75% - 2.25%. Is your flour malted? for a long fermentation you need food for your yeast, so a malted flour or add about 2% sugar. Both malted flour and sugar will aid browning of crust as well.

You seem to be handling your dough a lot. There isn’t any reason to shape and reshape.

Planetary mixers is not the ideal mixer for heavy doughs, especially doughs with yeast. Spiral mixers are the appropriate mixers for dough. But If using a planetary think you need to get a dough hook. Is there a reason for the mixing method? I don’t see a reason for it. Why are you blooming your yeast? You should just be able to put the water, salt and sugar in the bowl. Then add the flour and put the yeast on top of the flour to keep in from coming in direct contact with the salt and sugar. Then mix until the water is mixed into flour. Then add oil.


You really need to learn how to do DDT. I am not sure what the DDT should be for your pizza dough, but DDT is an absolute must for all yeast doughs. You need to find out the optimal DDT for your pizza dough. That is the most important thing. The humidity as well.

DDT looks daunting at first, but it’s pretty basic. You just need to know what temperature water to use. And you get that by:

• adding up the temperatures of the room, flour, preferment (if using), and friction factor from the mixer.
• multiply the dough temperature you want with the number of factors that add heat
• Then you subtract all the heat factors from desired dough temperature x factors

There are four major factors that contribute to the final temperature of your dough:

• Room temperature
• Flour temperature
• Preferment temperature
• Friction factor (mixing)
• Water temperature

The only factor that the baker can really control is the water (liquid) temperature.


Room temperature: for this example the room is 73°F
Preferment temp: no preferment is being used 0°F
Flour temperature: for this example the flour is 70°F
Friction factor: 8°F*

73 + 0 + 70 + 8 = 151



So if you want your dough to be 75°F, first add up all the factors that will add heat.

• Room temperature: for this example the room is 73°F
• Preferment temp: no preferment is being used 0°F
• Flour temperature: for this example the flour is 70°F
• Friction factor: 2°F*

73 + 0 + 70 + 8 = 151



Multiple the number of factors by the temperature you want the dough
You have 3 factors: room, flour, and friction
You want the dough to be 75°F

3 x 75 = 225


Subtract 225 from 151


225 - 151 = 74


Required water temperature: 74°F

===========================


*Friction Factor:

Spiral mixer: friction factor of 2°F (3.6C) per minute of mixing. So if you mix for 4 minutes, your friction factor is 8 (2 x 4 = 8)

Planetary mixer: planetary mixers generate considerable heat and there is no average fiction factor value for these mixers. You have to calculate the friction factor for each day’s work when using a planetary mixer. First dough of the day, mix the dough as usual for 1 minute on the second setting. Take the temperature and log. Then mix 1 minute and take the temperature. Friction factor on a planetary mixer is the degrees the dough temperature rises for every one minute of mixing on the second setting. So if the dough temperature increases by 3 degrees per minute and you mix for 4 minutes, your friction factor is 12 (3 x 4 = 12)


========================

I would strongly recommend you get a dough hook for your mixer. Also try other flours. Keith Giusto Bakery Supply in Petaluma CA supplies flour for the top bakeries in the nation. They are connected directly to the mills as they are a partner of Central Milling. They mill a pizza flour that was developed by Tony Gemignani. It’s a higher protein at 15%. It sounds like you have a lot of fundemantals that you still need to work out from equipment issues to formula and basic mixing techniques in order to put out a good product.

Awesome! Really appreciate you taking the time to respond, and especially the knowledge! Here's the recipe I'm wotking with...

flour 100% malted flour(no extra diastatic malt added)
water 75%
yeast 1.11% ADY
salt 2.9%(might be too much?)
sugar- no added sugsr
oil- no oil added
**No preferments added

I add salt about 1 minute after mixing everything else.

Unfortunately, we couldn't find the hook attachment and had to settle for the paddle. It was my first time mixing a batch the whole way thru with a paddle. It is a Hobart 60qt planetary mixer.

48hr cold bulk fermentation might be too long? 24hr instead? Should i degass at any point during the cold fermentation stage?

I bloomed the yeast because it was ADY and not instant. Should I try instant instead?

I might be using too much salt?

Thanks again!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

There’s no need to bloom yeast. Just don’t shock it by tossing is chilled water. The whole point of dry yeast is to mix it with the dry ingredients. I rarely bloom yeast. Put your water in the bowl. Add the salt and sugar. No need to stir even. Then the flour and pour the yeast on the flour. Then mix. You need to find that dough hook. The corkscrew shape of the hook will at least mix the dough without cutting up the gluten network. The paddle may cut through the dough and tear the gluten network, do the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. You don’t need to do a lot of mixing since the dough is going to go through a long ferment.

You don’t need to de-gas. The dough is de-gassed when you shape. Also, since the dough is going through a long cold ferment, the yeast is developing very slowly. Plus you are using ADY, which develops more slowly had IDY.

The salt at 2.9% is a tad high. To be honest the 70% hydration is what seems really high for pizza dough to me. 58% - 60% is kind of the standard hydration for pizza dough.


To give you some frame work, this is kind of the standard generic baker’s % for a pan pizza dough. Doesn’t mean you can’t be outside these ratios, just these are kind of the standard. Also some bakers like to add a fat, oil or shortening to a pan pizza dough. But it kind of depends on the style of pan pizza you are making. If you decide to experiment with fat, you should use a shortening that is formulated specifically for baking, don’t just go buy a can of crisco shortening. You want to keep the fat at about 4% and add it to the dough after the flour and water is initially mixed.



Flour 12.5% protein: 100%

Hydration: 58% - 60% but your protein is 13.5% so try different hydration levels to see what you like.

ADY 2% long cold ferment; up to 5% short fermentation

Salt 1.75%

Sugar 2%

You won’t get a lot of flavor out of a straight dough made with all purpose flour. You can ferment a dough like this up to 36 hrs, but there isn’t much benefit to be had from a really long ferment. Do some experiment. With your next batch, bake some at 24 hrs, then the rest at 24 hrs. See if there is a significant difference in flavor. You may find that what you are giving up in production time may not be worth it. But then again, you might find that extra time add flavor, so the extra time and cost in storage space is worth it.