Tears in dough!

[LamsMekk]

Hi!
Can someone please help me .

it doesn’t matter how long I knead for I can never seem to get rid of the tears in the dough.
I’ve kneaded this dough bu hand for 25 mins and although it feels lovely and soft there are tears everywhere..

Any ideas on where I’m going wrong?

Many thanks in advance!

 

[LamsMekk]

This is the dough!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

This is the dough!

Most people don’t know how to knead dough. They use flour on the counter. You should no flour when you knead dough.
Proper way to knead dough

Bread Tip 6 - How to knead bread dough — Bake with Jack

There are so many ways to knead bread dough. Once you start looking online you'll find all sorts. I like to stick semi-traditional

www.bakewithjack.co.uk

just an aside very little flour is on the counter when roll out puffy pastry, croissant, tart, and pie crust as well. Adding flour throws off the baker’s percentages. It makes the pastry tough and dry.


==============

list of Jack’s videos. For the fundamentals for learning bread I think he has one of the best websites.

Videos — Bake with Jack

Videos New episode every Thursday Sign Up

www.bakewithjack.co.uk

 

[LamsMekk]

hi,

I never add flour when kneading dough I use a bench scrapper. And the dough wasn’t dry at all it was soft.
My question was why is the dough tearing?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

hi,

I never add flour when kneading dough I use a bench scrapper. And the dough wasn’t dry at all it was soft.
My question was why is the dough tearing?

25 minutes is twice the amount of time you need to knead. So there’s too much gluten; so when you press down and stretch a stiff dough you tear it. If you watched the video Jack explains the amount of time to knead. He even tells people to set an alarm. Also mentions that doughs feel different depending of hydration.

 

[LamsMekk]

But at 8 minutes it doesn’t pass the window pane test... plus the recipes requires a 10 minute need by machine so when hand kneading doesn’t it have to be kneaded for longer?

also, the tears are still there at 8 minutes

 

[Norcalbaker59]

But at 8 minutes it doesn’t pass the window pane test... plus the recipes requires a 10 minute need by machine so when hand kneading doesn’t it have to be kneaded for longer?

also, the tears are still there at 8 minutes

First off people put way too much emphasis on the windowpane test. And beginners never perform it correctly and they end up over kneading their dough. It’s a completely unnecessary test and you don’t need to do it

You know you don’t even need to knead dough to develop gluten. Some doughs have so much hydration, 80% or higher, you can’t even knead them. Extraordinary bread is made every day by stretching and folding the dough a times, then letting the dough rest 45 min or so between foldings. So tens of thousands of loaves of bread are made every day in which the windowpane test is not performed.


What you need is a fundamental understanding of dough. What to look and feel for in a dough to know when you have enough gluten.

The other thing is technique. Kneading is a gentle motion.

The other thing you need to realize is that different flours have different levels of protein. And the different treatment that your flour has been subjected to well also affect the protein level. So that will also affect how the gluten develops in your flour. For example Gold Medal AP flour is bleached the protein level is about 10.5%. King Arthur AP flour is unbleached and the protein level is 11.7%. They’re two different types of wheat in these flours. There’s going to be a significant difference in the performance of these two flour. Everything from the amount of liquid they absorb, to how quickly they develop gluten, to the amount of gluten they develop, to how they rise, to how the bake, the color when baked. The texture of the crumb the flavor. They’re both all purpose flours, yet they are going to be completely different.

So just because the recipe states 10 minutes of kneading in a machine does not mean that anyone else is going to reach the same level of gluten in 10 minutes. It would depend on using the same machine, the same speed, the same brand of flour, the amount of flour and water and another ingredients by weight.

=========
King Arthur flour how to knead dough. Ignore all that flour she’s throwing all over the counter. But look at how she gently kneads the dough. And she’s also testing the dough and looking for gluten development at the end. She’s not looking for window pain she’s looking to see how responsive the dough is. technique is very important. But need to learn the different feel the changes of your dough as it develops. A windowpane isn’t always going to


https://www.google.com/search?q=Kin...client=safari#kpvalbx=_sWm9Xu1_zNv6BK_LpPgB63

 

[LamsMekk]

But tbh, I really don’t think it’s that simple.
there is A LOT of conflicting information out there regarding how to correctly handle dough.

I can show you so many articles I’ve read this week alone, some say knead for 2-3 time’s the time stated in the recipe if the recipe uses a machine. Others say 10 minutes is enougH, others say dough should be kneaded until it passes the window pane test, then there’s kneading for increments of 10 minutes which could lead to 30 minute kneading sessions!

One general consensus though seems to be that it’s very unlikely that you will over knead dough by hand.....

So what now, do I knead for 10 minutes, knead for 30, fold it every 10 minutes?

What’s the correct answer? It’s driving me nuts!

 

[LamsMekk]

First off people put way too much emphasis on the windowpane test. And beginners never perform it correctly and they end up over kneading their dough. It’s a completely unnecessary test and you don’t need to do it

You know you don’t even need to knead dough to develop gluten. Some doughs have so much hydration, 80% or higher, you can’t even knead them. Extraordinary bread is made every day by stretching and folding the dough a times, then letting the dough rest 45 min or so between foldings. So tens of thousands of loaves of bread are made every day in which the windowpane test is not performed.


What you need is a fundamental understanding of dough. What to look and feel for in a dough to know when you have enough gluten.

The other thing is technique. Kneading is a gentle motion.

The other thing you need to realize is that different flours have different levels of protein. And the different treatment that your flour has been subjected to well also affect the protein level. So that will also affect how the gluten develops in your flour. For example Gold Medal AP flour is bleached the protein level is about 10.5%. King Arthur AP flour is unbleached and the protein level is 11.7%. They’re two different types of wheat in these flours. There’s going to be a significant difference in the performance of these two flour. Everything from the amount of liquid they absorb, to how quickly they develop gluten, to the amount of gluten they develop, to how they rise, to how the bake, the color when baked. The texture of the crumb the flavor. They’re both all purpose flours, yet they are going to be completely different.

So just because the recipe states 10 minutes of kneading in a machine does not mean that anyone else is going to reach the same level of gluten in 10 minutes. It would depend on using the same machine, the same speed, the same brand of flour, the amount of flour and water and another ingredients by weight.

=========
King Arthur flour how to knead dough. Ignore all that flour she’s throwing all over the counter. But look at how she gently kneads the dough. And she’s also testing the dough and looking for gluten development at the end. She’s not looking for window pain she’s looking to see how responsive the dough is. technique is very important. But need to learn the different feel the changes of your dough as it develops. A windowpane isn’t always going to


https://www.google.com/search?q=Kin...client=safari#kpvalbx=_sWm9Xu1_zNv6BK_LpPgB63

Thanks for the detailed response btw

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Well I’ve been baking 20 yrs. i’ve taken a baking classes with master bakers. I do know a thing or two about baking. I don’t use cookbooks I make my own recipes. And my breads are pretty decent. I offered my opinion and that’s about all I can do.

 

[LamsMekk]

Wow your breads look amazing!!!
So what method do you use exactly?
Need to give it a go!

 

[LamsMekk]

 

[LamsMekk]

This is the recipe I’ve been using, any good?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Wow your breads look amazing!!!
So what method do you use exactly?
Need to give it a go!

Notice that one is richer in color; one is lighter in color. Notice the ends baguettes are shaped differently, One is pointed and one is a little more round. That’s so I could tell the difference between the two formulas.


There is no one method for making bread. They’re both baguettes. They’re both made the same day. But they’re made with different fours, with different levels of hydration. So they were mixed for different amounts of time. So they were mixed for different amounts of time because the gluten developed differently in each dough based on the flours and the water used.

Methods are important but you need to learn the science of baking. If you don’t understand.Baking is a chemical reaction of all ingredients to time and temperature. And that begins with the protein, mineral and moisture content of the wheat Before its even milled into flour. It’s understanding The temperature is like an ingredient and that you add it at different phases, in ways through out the process. It’s learning things like Desire Dough Temperature (IDDT) and how to calculate it.

I can recommend two books.

Jeffery Hamelman’s Bread A Baker’s Book Of Technique and Recipes

Hamelman is a master baker. There’s only a handful of master baker’s in the United States. He is one of the most respected bakers among professional artisan bread bakers in the county. I was in a baking class taught by a master baker who was the first and I think the only American to ever win the Coupe du Monde de la Boulangerie who said the only bread book he’d recommend is Hamelman’s book. Hamelman is the director King Arthur flour’s education center.

If you really want to understand bsking, for all things baking, the only other book I would recommend is a textbook by Michel Suas Advanced Bread And Pastry A Professional Approach. This is a textbook so it’s not cheap. It is not written for the home baker so everything is in baker’s percentages. All the techniques are for the professional baker.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Just because they are doing it that way does not mean it had to be done that. I think I’ve only once or twice ever tested for windowpane. It’s just so not necessary. I have baked bread with a couple of the most noted bakers in the country, like people who read like the Who’s Who of bakers in America. And they have never done the windowpane test either. And they make really incredible bread. Bread that makes my bread look like crumbs that should be scrape off the table. So I really wouldn’t get all worked up about the windowpane. Touch and feel your dough. I feel springy is it bouncing back. If you have gluten in it you’re good to go. And really if you have fresh flour and kneaded for 8 - 10 mins, you have a good gluten network. There is no way that you have not developed a good gluten network.

You need to understand there is no gluten in flour. There’s only the two SEPARATE proteins glutenin and gliadin. Only in the presence of water will they bind and form gluten. And that bond will be weak until it is agitated. It does it need a lot of agitation. Like I said even with simple stretch and fold you can create bonds.


Christia Cucina has directions for bread machine, stand mixer, and hand mixing. And I’ve use this recipe and it works beautifully. And you know I can bake, so trust me.

Perfect Yeast Doughnuts every single time!

Soft, fluffy doughnuts are so easy to make with this step by step recipe! Just read all the rave reviews!

www.christinascucina.com

 

[LamsMekk]

Thanks so much for your response! You’re a star
Will definitely look into those books!
I think I will stick to 10 minutes kneading as you have recommended

 

[LamsMekk]

So I’ve made the doughnuts and for some reason they’re not puffing up in the oil

omg someone help me I’m losing my mind

 

[LamsMekk]

Perhaps in overdoing the second proofing?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I’m ashamed to admit the number of years I baked before I was in a commercial kitchen and the baker stood next to me watching me knead dough. He then said, “Here, let me show you how this is done.”. I just wish someone told me sooner.

I saw your post about the doughnut disaster, but didn’t comment because another poster already responded. But since you brought up doughnuts on this thread, here’s my 2 cent worth:


Desired Dough Temperature (DDT) - in baking you if have to stay within the appropriate temperature range. It doesn’t matter if it’s bread, cookies, or puff pastry, the finish temperature is critical in baking. There’s different methods to control finished dough/batter temperature. For instance, cream 60°F butter with sugar to control the finished temperature cake batter and cookie dough. In bread and doughnut doughs, adjust the water (liquid) temperature to control the finished dough temperature. The reason you control the temperature of the dough,

There are five factors that go into dough temperature: water, flour, preferment, friction (mixing), and room temperature. You can only reasonably control the temperature of water (liquid). So Desired Dough Temperature (DDT) is based on adjusting the water temperature to control the temperature of the finished dough.

Desired Dough Temperature (DDT)

Total Temperature Factors (TTF)

• Room temperature
• Flour
• Preferment (optional)
• Friction Factor (mixer or hand kneading)

Required Water Temperature = (DDT x TTF) - (room temp + preferments (if using) + flour temp + friction factor)



Desired Dough Temperature (DDT) for commercial yeast doughnuts is 78°F-82°F (25.6°C-27.8°C). So use 80°F.



The steps in calculating DDT:


Step 1: 80°F is DDT.


Multiply DDT by TTF (either 3 or 4). We are only using 3 factors.


80 x 3 = 240



Step 2: add all the TTFs

• Room temp 75°F
• Flour temp 70°F
• Friction factor 6°F*

75 + 70 + 6 = 151


Step 3: subtract sum of factors from TTF



240 - 161 = 79


Required water temperature 79°F




*Friction Factor Estimates:

• 22°F -24°F for mixing in stand mixer
• 6°F-8°F hand kneading gentle folds
• 0-4°F stretch and fold

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Use the correct yeast. Active dry yeast, instant yeast are two different strains of yeast. Yeast is a living organism. It feeds on the starches in the flour. Instant yeast is a strain that reproduces rapidly, so rapidly within hours it can reproduce to levels that are unsustainable in the dough, and it starts to die off. Instant yeast cannot be used in long fermentation. I rarely use instant yeast.



Active dry is slower to reproduce, but is more sustainable. I find active yeast to be better than instant yeast.





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Dough is springing back when cutting: that is too much gluten from over kneading. When you are kneading, you must feel your dough your for texture. Once the dough begins to for form a ball and is smooth, stop kneading. Look at the King Arthur video I linked. You are so over kneading. Set a timer for 8 mins.



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Controlled temperature for proofing. It is very important that you control the temperature in which you proof. Use your oven. Turn it on for 90 seconds, then turn it off. Place an instant read thermometer in the oven on a baking sheet to check the temperature; you want the oven to be 95° to 100° F (35° to 37.8° C.

When the doughnut is properly proofed, touch it very lightly, it should hold the impression of your fingerprint just as you touch it. If is is under proofed, it will spring back, it will be a bit tight. If it is over proofed, it will slightly give in.

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Humidity: You also need sufficient humidity to prevent crusting. Place a small pan with a little bit of boiling water on the floor of the oven.





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Frying: over browning issues, use a wide pan like a wok. The doughnuts need space.



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Deflating, tasted weird, big gaps, etc., : your dough gassed out. your dough was fermented at too high a temperature. See importance of DDT. If you do not control your finished dough temperature, these are the consequences.

Baking is all science. As you learn the science behind what you are doing like @Cahoot, you will be a great baker. There’s a lot of incorrect information on the internet and in cookbooks. Get Suas textbook. It’s for professionals, but it will clear things up.

 

[LamsMekk]

Wow that’s an amazing response thank you so so much!

It’s so frustrating because the internet is full of conflicting information which makes it very difficult to know the correct method to use.

To be honest, I’ve been using trial and error approach.

I can absolutely see that there are crucial very intricate stages in any type of bread making and if just one of these strps is carried out incorrectly then the result is inadequate!

When I’m proofing my doughnuts the second time, they inflate to the point of deflating if they’re moved even slightly. Like they become very very delicate so it would be impossible to poke them.

The recipe that I use calls for instant yeast. The way I’ve been proofing the dough so far is to steam up my bathroom (there is no toilet in there) and make sure it’s warm.
I definitely need to invest in a room thermometer which I have attempted to do but I’m totally unsure of the brand which will yield the most accurate results as I think that this is something that I would need to spend a bit of extra cash on so that I’m not lumbered with a thermometer that isn’t reliable.

I’m really keen to achieve the nice puffing up result when I drop the doughnuts into the oil but they it just isn’t happening for me.

I am definitely going to order the book that you recommended tonight.

Dough based cooking is even more of a science then cake based! I definitely understand why the term master baker was coined as in many ways it is a very complicated and skilful area of cooking.

I am very much grateful for the advice you have offered me!

It’s very difficult to get hold of yeast Atm but I did manage to get some instant yeast. Any advice on how to use this more efficiently?

Thanks in advance! X