Sourdough beginner's Tale: 1st Bread Attempt Failure...

[Norcalbaker59]

Color me shocked Yeah, I've tried recipes where you add in all kinds of alternative "healthy flours" like wheat and also use coconut oil instead of butter, and palm sugar/date syrup/honey instead of sugar, etc. While some have turned out very tasty, I'm never fooled. Even if they are less calories than the usual chocolate chip, and have more protein...well, you'll just eat more because you think "they have less calories and more protein" right?

Doesn't seem like they're worth the bother unless you're baking them for someone with allergies or vegan or on a special/religious diet.

Totally agree. And whole wheat belongs in bread where it can develop and blossom and really be tasted.

Well, I think the gentleman behind the counter assumed that, being a novice baker, I was working from a lower-hydration recipe for this bread. And as I was buying whole wheat, I think he also assumed I was going to use a lot of it in the bread. It only makes sense for him to warn me that it might need a more water. Once he read the recipe I was using, he said I was fine and didn't need to worry.

While I was there, they were making bread. They test every batch, and then write up on the website and bags what the baker needs to know about that flour. Maybe their tests showed that this whole wheat was a little different and needed even more water. Or, possibly, they just put that on the package as a warning to bakers who might not realize that if they use primarily these flours, rather than blending them with all-purpose/bread, they're going to need more water?

I was thinking of getting their rye flour. But as you advise, I'll just try the wheat for now. The other flours will be Arrowhead rye and either King Arthur all purpose or King Arthur Bread. I used King Arthur bread the first time around, and thought it was a little gummy—but I really can't tell given that the bread hasn't risen right yet. The second time around I switched to 365 all purpose. I wasn't as happy with that loaf, so back to King Arthur. The difference is between 12% protein (bread) and 11% protein (all purpose). Thoughts?

Do you add pickle juice? That was my great-aunt's secret to her potato salad. Add some pickle juice to the warm, diced potatoes and let marinade for about 15 minutes before mixing in the rest. And yes, steaming eggs gets much better hard-boiled results.

Yes a lot of new bakers don’t realize whole-wheat requires 100% hydration. It’s always a shocker. When I was first told that years ago I was like, “huh?”

I think the 12% protein for your AP because rye and whole wheat flour are very weak flours. The gummy texture is due in part to the high hydration and low rise from the lower protein. The 12% protein will give you more gluten structure since you won’t get much help from the whole wheat and rye.

The WF 365 flour is Central Millings Beehive flour which is 10% - 10.5%. This flour is great for piecrust, muffins, biscuits dinner rolls, quick breads, pancakes, waffles, shortbread. And supposedly makes a really good baguette.

yeah when I was a kid my grandfather used to try to pawn off carob as chocolate He was a health food nut before there was such a movement. My grandmother was very conscious about what she cooked and served. But being a Southern country woman, Everything was fresh from the garden or orchard. She baked from scratch. So it was delicious. My mother could not cook. She was Japanese born and raised from a wealthy family. They had a cook so she nerve learned. Her cookies were horrible. They were rock hard. We used to have rock fights with them in the ally. You couldn’t eat them.

Oh my sister-in-law adds the pickle juice to my grandmother’s potato salad recipe. It seems to be a grandma thing I add a couple tablespoons of vinegar to the potatoes as they cooling. That’s in place of the pickle juice. That’s a trick I learned from ATK.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I find sourdough incredibly temperature-sensitive. I live in the UK, so my kitchen is typically 18-20C in the winter, and sourdough takes forever to rise. In the winter, my go-to recipe is a no-knead one, where I just leave the dough for 18 hours - yes EIGHTEEN hours - and then stretch and shape, and let rise for another 4 hours before baking. On a warm day in the summer, this time reduces dramatically.

Yes good point about ambient temperature affecting the rise time. My house is really old wood house so there isn’t any good insulation in the walls. In the winter it’s very cold. In the summer it’s extremely hot.

I use my oven when the kitchen is really cold. Just leave it off, but turn the oven light on. The oven light seems to provide enough heat to help the dough rise in a decent amount of time.

 

[J13]

I find sourdough incredibly temperature-sensitive. I live in the UK, so my kitchen is typically 18-20C in the winter, and sourdough takes forever to rise. In the winter, my go-to recipe is a no-knead one, where I just leave the dough for 18 hours - yes EIGHTEEN hours - and then stretch and shape, and let rise for another 4 hours before baking. On a warm day in the summer, this time reduces dramatically.

Good point! I think part of my problem has been that for the first half of my sourdough journey the weather was unseasonably cold where I was. Now it’s warming up and I’m going to have to keep an eye on things.

Fascinating idea to leave it for 18 hours...I assume that’s out in the open? My recipe has it left for 16 hours but in the refrigerator for the final very slow rise.

 

[J13]

I think the 12% protein for your AP because rye and whole wheat flour are very weak flours. The gummy texture is due in part to the high hydration and low rise from the lower protein. The 12% protein will give you more gluten structure since you won’t get much help from the whole wheat and rye.

Bread flour it is then! Same as the first loaf but with different whole wheat. “Once more into the breech....”

The WF 365 flour is Central Millings Beehive flour which is 10% - 10.5%. This flour is great for piecrust, muffins, biscuits dinner rolls, quick breads, pancakes, waffles, shortbread. And supposedly makes a really good baguette.

Well, into my “all purpose” container it goes for biscuits, scones, muffins and cookies. It has definitely gotten to the point where my bread-making flours and tools are tucked away separate from the usual baking flour and tools. I really don’t want to be searching around for the right white flour....

She was Japanese born and raised from a wealthy family. They had a cook so she nerve learned. Her cookies were horrible. They were rock hard. We used to have rock fights with them in the ally. You couldn’t eat them.

Your poor mom. She much have had a huge culture shock coming to America and living such a different life with such different expectations....

Oh my sister-in-law adds the pickle juice to my grandmother’s potato salad recipe. It seems to be a grandma thing I add a couple tablespoons of vinegar to the potatoes as they cooling. That’s in place of the pickle juice. That’s a trick I learned from ATK.

Well, now you’ve got me thinking about potato salad. It is summer and I do love it. And yes, heresy though it might be to you, mine includes a touch of mustard.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Bread flour it is then! Same as the first loaf but with different whole wheat. “Once more into the breech....”

Well, into my “all purpose” container it goes for biscuits, scones, muffins and cookies. It has definitely gotten to the point where my bread-making flours and tools are tucked away separate from the usual baking flour and tools. I really don’t want to be searching around for the right white flour....

Your poor mom. She much have had a huge culture shock coming to America and living such a different life with such different expectations....

Well, now you’ve got me thinking about potato salad. It is summer and I do love it. And yes, heresy though it might be to you, mine includes a touch of mustard.

Lol I insist on making the potato salad because everyone adds that touch of mustard and I don’t like the mustard

 

[Chris]

Good point! I think part of my problem has been that for the first half of my sourdough journey the weather was unseasonably cold where I was. Now it’s warming up and I’m going to have to keep an eye on things.

Fascinating idea to leave it for 18 hours...I assume that’s out in the open? My recipe has it left for 16 hours but in the refrigerator for the final very slow rise.

Yes, on the table at (cool) room temperature, but covered to stop it drying out. It was the first sourdough recipe I ever tried, and the easiest - and I still have more success with that one than the ones using a two-stage process, although it takes longer.

I take some starter out of the fridge (a couple of hours in advance to bring it to room temperature to wake it up if I remember, but if I forget it doesn't make a huge difference with such a long process), add water to it, then stir in the flour and some salt until it's a lumpy dough. Then I cover it. After 18 hours it still look like a lumpy dough that hasn't done much, but you'll find it's become very stretchy and will pass the windowpane test - so you can gently stretch and fold at this stage. Then I let it sit for another four hours and drop into a pre-headed very hot cast iron pot in a high oven to give it plenty of oven spring.

Because it's left for 18 hours initially, the really slow "rise" does the equivalent of kneading for you. However, I only get good results in the winter when it's cool. The faster rising (maybe 4 hours instead of 18) in summer months means you do need to stretch and shape every 45 mins or so to help it along.

 

[J13]

...add water to it, then stir in the flour and some salt until it's a lumpy dough. Then I cover it. After 18 hours it still look like a lumpy dough that hasn't done much, but you'll find it's become very stretchy and will pass the windowpane test - so you can gently stretch and fold at this stage. Then I let it sit for another four hours and drop into a pre-headed very hot cast iron pot in a high oven to give it plenty of oven spring.

This certainly sounds easy and flexible. Could you direct me to the recipe? I’m determined to make at least one decent loaf from the recipe I’m currently using (I will master it! I will!), but if it falls down yet again, I might as well start looking at other recipes. It isn’ that this one bothers me all that much (outside of the fact that I’ve overproofed it twice now ), but on bread-Making-day I do feel like I can’t be out and about when I’d usually be out-and-about. A recipe like you’re would give me a chance to be free the hours I need to be, and making bread when I’m usually at home. Which would be helpful. It would also be helpful If it wouldn’t overproof

 

[Chris]

This certainly sounds easy and flexible. Could you direct me to the recipe? I’m determined to make at least one decent loaf from the recipe I’m currently using (I will master it! I will!), but if it falls down yet again, I might as well start looking at other recipes. It isn’ that this one bothers me all that much (outside of the fact that I’ve overproofed it twice now ), but on bread-Making-day I do feel like I can’t be out and about when I’d usually be out-and-about. A recipe like you’re would give me a chance to be free the hours I need to be, and making bread when I’m usually at home. Which would be helpful. It would also be helpful If it wouldn’t overproof

Sure - I use this recipe on the Breadtopia site (it has a video too). As you can see from the details on there, he's a bit vague about rising times - anything from 9 hours to 18 hours.

https://breadtopia.com/no-knead-bread/

Chris.

 

[J13]

https://breadtopia.com/no-knead-bread/

Ah, it uses a touch of instant yeast. I'm trying to make this bread without that little helper, but I'm beginning to think I might have to give up on that lofty ambition.

 

[Chris]

Ah, it uses a touch of instant yeast. I'm trying to make this bread without that little helper, but I'm beginning to think I might have to give up on that lofty ambition.

Apologies, I must have put in the wrong link! There's a starter-only version too that doesn't use instant yeast.

On my phone right now but will put in the correct link when I'm back at my desk.