Shrinking Pastry!!

[The Mad Kiwi]

Hi there fellow bakers. This is my first post here so sorry if it's been discussed before. I'm having trouble with shrinking pastry while making meat pies. The puff pastry tops always seem to shrink in the oven and break their seal. Any ideas what might be causing this? Here is what I'm using and my ratios.

• 200g Anchor butter
• 250g French T45 flour
• Pinch salt
• 75mls cold water (approx)

I'm rolling it out and doing 2 folds, then baking in a convection oven @180*C (355 Fahrenheit)

Any tips would be greatly appreciated

 

[chassis]

There has been some feedback on thefreshloaf for you.

Can you post a photo or a link of what you are trying to achieve? The other pies in the photo on thefreshloaf did not have the same appearance as this one.

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

There has been some feedback on thefreshloaf for you.

Can you post a photo or a link of what you are trying to achieve? The other pies in the photo on thefreshloaf did not have the same appearance as this one.

Yes I saw that thank you. I'm really just trying to get a nice seal on the pie like these pictured here.

 

[chassis]

Was egg wash used to adhere the lid (top) to the bottom crust?

Can you please post the recipe and the source (website) it came from?

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

Was egg wash used to adhere the lid (top) to the bottom crust?

Can you please post the recipe and the source (website) it came from?

I used water to stick the lid on. I was following this recipe but they used store-bought pastry. I decided to make my own.

I followed this pastry recipe: puff pastry

and this filling recipe: filling

 

[retired baker]

Your dough is better than that other dough in the photo
, T45 is good, just roll the dough thinner.
Roll it out, let it relax 10 minutes and roll it again, it will roll out much easier with the relax period.
Allow 15 minutes to relax again before baking.
The idea is to get the tension out of the dough before it hits the heat.

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

Your dough is better than that other dough in the photo
, T45 is good, just roll the dough thinner.
Roll it out, let it relax 10 minutes and roll it again, it will roll out much easier with the relax period.
Allow 15 minutes to relax again before baking.
The idea is to get the tension out of the dough before it hits the heat.

Thanks for the tips. Would you just let it relax at room temperature?

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

Found this online. Shrinking can be due to gluten:

Let’s talk about gluten.​

The first 2 rules exist almost exclusively to control the amount of gluten formation. Huh? Okay, I’ll break it down for you.

Gluten is two proteins that are found in wheat that, when hydrated and agitated, form a felt-like network. They are responsible for the structure in your pie crust. You need a certain amount of gluten to create a flakey crust that won’t just crumble or fall apart after slicing. But gluten is also what makes your pastry shrink or become tough when it should be delicate.

There are several key steps in pastry making that are all about making sure only the appropriate amount of gluten forms. Gluten forms best in a warm environment, so back to the #1 rule of keeping it cold. Cutting in the butter coats some of those gluten strands so that they cannot form a tight, cohesive network.

This brings us to the second rule of pastry. You need to work quickly once you begin adding the water because gluten needs to be hydrated before it forms. The faster you work and the colder your water, the less gluten has a chance to form.

 

[retired baker]

Found this online. Shrinking can be due to gluten:

Let’s talk about gluten.​

The first 2 rules exist almost exclusively to control the amount of gluten formation. Huh? Okay, I’ll break it down for you.

Gluten is two proteins that are found in wheat that, when hydrated and agitated, form a felt-like network. They are responsible for the structure in your pie crust. You need a certain amount of gluten to create a flakey crust that won’t just crumble or fall apart after slicing. But gluten is also what makes your pastry shrink or become tough when it should be delicate.

There are several key steps in pastry making that are all about making sure only the appropriate amount of gluten forms. Gluten forms best in a warm environment, so back to the #1 rule of keeping it cold. Cutting in the butter coats some of those gluten strands so that they cannot form a tight, cohesive network.

This brings us to the second rule of pastry. You need to work quickly once you begin adding the water because gluten needs to be hydrated before it forms. The faster you work and the colder your water, the less gluten has a chance to form.

Thats only part of the information.
And it doesn't apply to T45.
It would be like trying to develop gluten in cake flour, its just not there to develop.
If there is a danger of gluten development you've got an unsuitable flour, it can be done but why fight something you can leave out to begin with.

 

[retired baker]

Thanks for the tips. Would you just let it relax at room temperature?

That depends on the temperature of your room.
If its above the melt point of butter its a problem, if its cooler its safe.
I like to work at 60 to 70F. Feel the dough with the back of your hand, it should feel quite cool or cold.

But it needs chilling to firm up before you can proceed, you can't make the dough and immediately make pies.
I would give it at least a couple of hours if not overnight.

 

[Jackamus]

Hi there fellow bakers. This is my first post here so sorry if it's been discussed before. I'm having trouble with shrinking pastry while making meat pies. The puff pastry tops always seem to shrink in the oven and break their seal. Any ideas what might be causing this? Here is what I'm using and my ratios.

• 200g Anchor butter
• 250g French T45 flour
• Pinch salt
• 75mls cold water (approx)

I'm rolling it out and doing 2 folds, then baking in a convection oven @180*C (355 Fahrenheit)

Any tips would be greatly appreciated

This may or may or may not be helpful but I designed and made a pie maker for making pies in round foil dishes for freezing. I used 'Just Roll' puff pastry for the tops and 'Just Roll' short pastry for the bottoms although now I make my own short pastry.
I make sure I wet the edge of the short pastry bottoms before pressing down the puff pastry tops. They never separate whilst cooking. The greatest problem is sometimes the bottom sticks to the foil dish.
With my pie maker I usually make about 10 at a time.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hi there fellow bakers. This is my first post here so sorry if it's been discussed before. I'm having trouble with shrinking pastry while making meat pies. The puff pastry tops always seem to shrink in the oven and break their seal. Any ideas what might be causing this? Here is what I'm using and my ratios.

• 200g Anchor butter
• 250g French T45 flour
• Pinch salt
• 75mls cold water (approx)

I'm rolling it out and doing 2 folds, then baking in a convection oven @180*C (355 Fahrenheit)

Any tips would be greatly appreciated

Dough shrinkage is caused by several factors. it can be a combination of several of these.

1: Flour protein too high. Use a flour protein of 10% - 10.5%

2) Too much water. Flour to water ratio should be 30% - 33%.
If the weight of the flour is 250g. 250 x .30 = 75. Water is 75 mL

3) Over mixed, too much gluten developed in dough. Dough will snap back when rolled. There’s no fix for over development of gluten.

4) Not rested: dough must be rested several hours after mixing, preferably overnight

 

[pastrypastaonion]

It sounds like the puff pastry is overworked and not given enough time to rest in the fridge. Try rolling the pastry out, folding it together, and resting it in the fridge for at least 30 minutes before baking. This will help the pastry to relax, reducing the amount of shrinkage that occurs in the oven. Additionally, make sure to not overwork the pastry when rolling it out and folding it, as this can also contribute to shrinkage. Finally, ensure the oven temperature is correct and that the oven is preheated before placing the pies in.

 

[Grace.Hoste]

The pastry may be shrinking because it is overworked or not chilled properly before baking. Try using chilled butter, rolling the dough out thinner and chilling it before baking. Also, reduce the temperature of the oven and increase the baking time.

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

Thank you for all your tips and input on this.

I have come to the conclusion (after countless attempts, experimentation and comparing to store bought pastry) that the problem is overworking the dough during mixing and/or rolling process. So that leaves me with a new question:

How do I NOT overwork the dough? I have tried using hands, food processor and stand mixer. Same results. I have a rolling machine and fold 3 times to create layers. I try to work the dough as little as possible while bringing it together, and adding the water little by little.

Any advice will be much appreciated. I think I'm getting closer.

 

[retired baker]

This may or may or may not be helpful but I designed and made a pie maker for making pies in round foil dishes for freezing. I used 'Just Roll' puff pastry for the tops and 'Just Roll' short pastry for the bottoms although now I make my own short pastry.
I make sure I wet the edge of the short pastry bottoms before pressing down the puff pastry tops. They never separate whilst cooking. The greatest problem is sometimes the bottom sticks to the foil dish.
With my pie maker I usually make about 10 at a time.

you're supposed to grease the tin lightly.

 

[retired baker]

Thank you for all your tips and input on this.

I have come to the conclusion (after countless attempts, experimentation and comparing to store bought pastry) that the problem is overworking the dough during mixing and/or rolling process. So that leaves me with a new question:

How do I NOT overwork the dough? I have tried using hands, food processor and stand mixer. Same results. I have a rolling machine and fold 3 times to create layers. I try to work the dough as little as possible while bringing it together, and adding the water little by little.

Any advice will be much appreciated. I think I'm getting closer.

The photos of the pie you're trying to copy is not puff dough, its just regular savory pie dough.
In the UK its more likely to be boiled water dough such as is used for pork pies...made with lard not butter.