Pâte sablée crumbles easily after baking

[Norcalbaker59]

Im assuming everything is scaled? It minimizes differences the differences in amounts but not texture and flavor. There’s a reason that Dominic Ansel imports flour and butter from France.

I have not been able to find mascarpone Imported from Italy either, nor sheeps milk ricotta. It’s extremely frustrating. All I can find is mascarpone from Vermont Creamery and BelGioso. Neither has the texture or flavor of the imported Italian. We use the BelGioso at the shop where I work since it’s better four our purposes.

Yeah that book has things written out and metric weight.

But scale is not the issue. The issue is the difference in the ingredients.

for example, wheat in the UK Is naturally very low in protein. plain flour in the UK has a protein content of about 9%. It’s also unbleached.

All purpose flour in the United States has a protein content of 10% – 11.5%. The glour may be bleached or unbleached. Unbleached pastry flour in the United States are the equivalent to plain flour in the UK.

French flour is miled completely different from other flours. French flour is labeled with a number. The number indicates the level of ash (mineral) content.

in other countries the wheat kernel is separated; the bran, germ, and endosperm are then milled separately. Flours are made my blending different percentages of these three streams back together. Whole wheat flour contains all three streams, it’s 100% extraction. cake flour contains almost all endosperm flour; it’s about 45% extraction. all purpose flour is about 73% extraction.

The French mill the entire wheat colonel then sift out the bran and germ. So some of the bran and germ is in bedded into the endosperm flower. This creates a flour that is higher in protein and ash content. So it actually performs differently.


Type 45: equivalent to pastry flour

Type 55: equivalent to all-purpose

Type 65: the first in a line of what Americans would call bread flour, but it is still pretty low in protein

Types 80: high gluten bread flour

Type 110: Another type of bread flour that has a unique blend of bran and germ so it performs bit handles more like all-purpose flour, but has some of the nutritional value, colors, and aromas of whole wheat flour.

Butter in France is cultured. The cream is fermented before the butter is made. American butter is sweet cream butter, that’s why it has no flavor.

The dairy in Europe is different. Anyway you get the idea

Whenever you make something using a formula from another country, you have to make those conversions.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Interesting thing is when I was in Italy the instructors talked about these differences. But I’ve never had any instructors in the United States talk about these differences.

 

[Chouquette]

As I said, there is a reason that Dominique Ansel, and others import their flour and butter from France to use in the pastries they make in the US. They taste, texture and performance of products in other countries vary.

When I’m using a French recipe, from a French cookbook, that is written in French for the French market, I try and use French butter and flour. when I am using an American cookbook which is created using American products, using a higher fat French butter in place of the standard US butter can be a mistake as your product can end up being greasy. I have the luxury of being able to bring French products back home with me. The difference in butter is particularly noticeable, not just in terms of flavor, but performance. For example, the higher percentage of butterfat holds a butter that is more malleable at lower temperatures. For laminated doughs, this is critical. It allows you more time to do your turns without risking the butter being too warm and destroying the integrity of your layers. Any dough that is rolled benefits from the plasticity of the higher butterfat content. In the shop where I work, we use Plugra for our laminated doughs and our buttercream. We the plasticity of the higher butterfat content but Plugra is still missing the flavor of butter from Normandy or Brittany.

Eggs are different as well and not just the weight of them, which can be universalized by scaling them. The yolks in French and Italy are much darker and more orange. It makes the dough color more golden, without having to overbake it.

My husband is French and we‘ve been going to France every year since 1984. I’ve had many discussions with French pastry chefs about differences in products. Some have no experience with products in other countries. What’s fascinating is to speak with chefs who’ve been to the US and have worked with US products and understand the differences, how they affect outcomes and how to develop work around to adapt recipes.

 

[chassis]

This topic is spot on. Add Germany to the flour discussion. The ingredients available in the U.S. are generally poor in my view. I have travelled extensively in Europe and agree with the comments above related to European flour and dairy products.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

As I said, there is a reason that Dominique Ansel, and others import their flour and butter from France to use in the pastries they make in the US. They taste, texture and performance of products in other countries vary.

When I’m using a French recipe, from a French cookbook, that is written in French for the French market, I try and use French butter and flour. when I am using an American cookbook which is created using American products, using a higher fat French butter in place of the standard US butter can be a mistake as your product can end up being greasy. I have the luxury of being able to bring French products back home with me. The difference in butter is particularly noticeable, not just in terms of flavor, but performance. For example, the higher percentage of butterfat holds a butter that is more malleable at lower temperatures. For laminated doughs, this is critical. It allows you more time to do your turns without risking the butter being too warm and destroying the integrity of your layers. Any dough that is rolled benefits from the plasticity of the higher butterfat content. In the shop where I work, we use Plugra for our laminated doughs and our buttercream. We the plasticity of the higher butterfat content but Plugra is still missing the flavor of butter from Normandy or Brittany.

Eggs are different as well and not just the weight of them, which can be universalized by scaling them. The yolks in French and Italy are much darker and more orange. It makes the dough color more golden, without having to overbake it.

My husband is French and we‘ve been going to France every year since 1984. I’ve had many discussions with French pastry chefs about differences in products. Some have no experience with products in other countries. What’s fascinating is to speak with chefs who’ve been to the US and have worked with US products and understand the differences, how they affect outcomes and how to develop work around to adapt recipes.

I know American butter has no flavor at all! Close your eyes and it’s like eating tasteless grease! Phil Bereano

Whenever I make anything with a that emphasizes the butter, it's French or some European cultured butter.

Central Milling makes some types French style flours. One of their owners Keith Giusto and his nephew Nick, run Keith Giusto Bakery Supplies in Petaluma CA. They sell to the trade but they repackage some of their flours in 5 lb bags. You can purchase online.


The US team for Coupe du Monde always trains out of their training center. Nick was a captain of the American team. They attract top notch guest master bakers like Peter Yuen for laminated dough. their training center is run by a former winner of the Coupe du Monde. As bakers they understand flour. Most of the top bakeries use their flours. their website will list the protein, ash content and any flour treatment.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

This topic is spot on. Add Germany to the flour discussion. The ingredients available in the U.S. are generally poor in my view. I have travelled extensively in Europe and agree with the comments above related to European flour and dairy products.

I don’t think it’s a matter of poor quality. It’s a matter of culture, traditions, land mass, and population. United States is a large country. we are not a homogeneous people, so there are no traditional food cultures here. In Europe there are appellations and PDO/DOPs for many food and beverages. Their food traditions have been around for centuries.

Even still, you can find mass produced goods in Europe that don’t taste good.

But there is a marked difference in ingredients produce for retail in the United States and commercial use. commercial products are far better in quality. They are produce to a completely different standard for a variety of reasons. For example, ingredients are going to be subjected to much high friction factor in commercial mixers; more intense heat in commercial ovens. Shelf life of product is really important; So water content in an ingredient becomes a major factor. Retail butter, shortenings and margarines will be manufactured to one standard, and other standard for the bakery industry.

Taste is really important. You’ll be amazed at the difference of what produced for the commercial market vs. retail market.

Fortunately home bakers can get some trade ingredients like almond flour (Mandelin); White chocolate (Valrhona); purees (The Perfect Puree). But they are expensive and must be ordered online.

 

[chassis]

We see things differently @Norcalbaker59 . The average European, and let's take the case of the German consumer more specifically, consumer has far higher quality ingredients and finished products at his/her arm's reach than does the American consumer. The German example can be generally applied to any developed European continental country. American food ingredients are generally poor quality. Safe, plentiful and not too expensive. And poor quality. Particularly grain- and dairy-related, but also fruit and vegetables. There is a "specialty produce" store near me. Their quality is average and selection is OK. The mainstream grocery produce sections are sad.

I was in Germany two weeks ago. In one city block there were a half dozen bakeries selling fresh, high quality products. The U.S. is a food desert by comparison. In California, your food scene is totally unlike most of the United States, in the variety and quality of what the average consumer has at his/her fingertips.

I order most non-fresh ingredients online because no stores carry them in stock anywhere I have travelled in the U.S. I travel alot. Even Whole Foods doesn't carry quality baking ingredients. The U.S. is a barren food desert, with a few exceptions like SEA, SF and LA.

 

[Chouquette]

I know American butter has no flavor at all! Close your eyes and it’s like eating tasteless grease! Phil Bereano

Whenever I make anything with a that emphasizes the butter, it's French or some European cultured butter.

Central Milling makes some types French style flours. One of their owners Keith Giusto and his nephew Nick, run Keith Giusto Bakery Supplies in Petaluma CA. They sell to the trade but they repackage some of their flours in 5 lb bags. You can purchase online.


The US team for Coupe du Monde always trains out of their training center. Nick was a captain of the American team. They attract top notch guest master bakers like Peter Yuen for laminated dough. their training center is run by a former winner of the Coupe du Monde. As bakers they understand flour. Most of the top bakeries use their flours. their website will list the protein, ash content and any flour treatment.

 

[Chouquette]

We see things differently @Norcalbaker59 . The average European, and let's take the case of the German consumer more specifically, consumer has far higher quality ingredients and finished products at his/her arm's reach than does the American consumer. The German example can be generally applied to any developed European continental country. American food ingredients are generally poor quality. Safe, plentiful and not too expensive. And poor quality. Particularly grain- and dairy-related, but also fruit and vegetables. There is a "specialty produce" store near me. Their quality is average and selection is OK. The mainstream grocery produce sections are sad.

I was in Germany two weeks ago. In one city block there were a half dozen bakeries selling fresh, high quality products. The U.S. is a food desert by comparison. In California, your food scene is totally unlike most of the United States, in the variety and quality of what the average consumer has at his/her fingertips.

I order most non-fresh ingredients online because no stores carry them in stock anywhere I have travelled in the U.S. I travel alot. Even Whole Foods doesn't carry quality baking ingredients. The U.S. is a barren food desert, with a few exceptions like SEA, SF and LA.

I have to agree with Chassis. In France, the average French man or woman have better butter, better fish better produce and better cheese. Bread, not necessarily. Sadly, France has succumbed to the Industrialization of bread production. Now one must go to a boulangerie that says “ Artisinal” and I only go to places I know.

The average French person also has access to high quality ready made foods Like puff pastry, pate sucrée, and pate brisée, should they be inclined to prepare a fancy hors-d’œuvre or dessert.

I think that part of the reason produce and fish are better is that France is a s all country, compared to the US. Things don’t have to travel as far in France as the do in the US. Thus, have bred our fruits and vegetables to survive long travels. The flavor is bred right out of them In favor of tough fruit which is picked unripe so it can travel well. Some of the really fine produce never leaves California. À California Blenheim apricot is as fine as any apricot I’ve had in Europe. I live in the Midwest and try to by seasonally so thatI can get the most flavorful fruit picked at the peak of ripeness. Sadly, a Michigan apricot will never be able to rival one from California, picked in California and eaten in California.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I have to agree with Chassis. In France, the average French man or woman have better butter, better fish better produce and better cheese. Bread, not necessarily. Sadly, France has succumbed to the Industrialization of bread production. Now one must go to a boulangerie that says “ Artisinal” and I only go to places I know.

The average French person also has access to high quality ready made foods Like puff pastry, pate sucrée, and pate brisée, should they be inclined to prepare a fancy hors-d’œuvre or dessert.

I think that part of the reason produce and fish are better is that France is a s all country, compared to the US. Things don’t have to travel as far in France as the do in the US. Thus, have bred our fruits and vegetables to survive long travels. The flavor is bred right out of them In favor of tough fruit which is picked unripe so it can travel well. Some of the really fine produce never leaves California. À California Blenheim apricot is as fine as any apricot I’ve had in Europe. I live in the Midwest and try to by seasonally so thatI can get the most flavorful fruit picked at the peak of ripeness. Sadly, a Michigan apricot will never be able to rival one from California, picked in California and eaten in California.

I think you guys are really generalizing. I’ve lived in Virginia, Texas, Hawaii, California. I’ve owned a second home in Florida, and spent a lot of time vacationing throughout the southern states and up through New Jersey and Pennsylvania. So I’ve eaten through a pretty good slice

Every community has its niche food scene. Some of the most extraordinary food is in the Low country— Savannah, Charleston.

I currently live in the Napa Valley. The cheese producers here are excellent. There’s something like 10 Michelin star restaurants in the valley, 6 of which are in my county. You cannot produce that many Michelin restaurants without having good ingredients.

Fresh produce at the farmers market here is outstanding. There’s world famous cheesemakers here. Sue Conley and Peggy Smith of Cowgirl Creamery were the first to be awarded honors by the French.

The grocery stores here are like International markets.

I think when you’re in the middle of nowhere, It’s a bit difficult to get quality ingredients. But that’s true no matter where you’re at in the world.

When I was visiting my cousin’s mother in really tiny little village in Belgium the offerings were pretty slim pickings compared to what was available in Brussels. The market in the little village was not unlike a small grocery store in America. But wow when we got to Brussels it was a whole different ball game.

 

[Cahoot]

Americans are notorious for changing things. So it could be they flip the scrip on this.

The CIA textbook says that Paris-Brest is usually filled with Chantilly cream and fresh strawberries. I pretty much take anything from a purely American source regarding French pastry with a grain of salt now haha.

 

[Chouquette]

The CIA textbook says that Paris-Brest is usually filled with Chantilly cream and fresh strawberries. I pretty much take anything from a purely American source regarding French pastry with a grain of salt now haha.

Paris-Brest are not usually filled with chantilly cream and strawberries, but, why not?

The original Paris-Brest was filled with a hazelnut mousseline cream made from beating chilled pastry cream with additional butter and pralinée paste.

Modern versions often use a mousseline cream with pecan paste, pistachio paste and other nut pastes. Some versions are based on pastry cream and others are based on pate à bomb. The one I make uses pate à bombe for a silky texture with some pastry cream to give it a little body. There are also chefs using ganache montée in place of the mousseline cream. I have made the following Paris-Brest for the shop:

Black Forest: chocolate pate à choux with Kirschwasser white chocolate ganache montee, sour cherry confit, chocolate crunch and candied sour cherries

Pécan/Cranberry: cranberry confit, pécan pralinée, pécan mousseline cream

Peanut/chocolaté: chocolaté ganache, salted roasted peanuts, peanut butter mousseline cream.

Pumpkin/Pecan: pecan pralinée, pumpkin white chocolate ganache montee,

Earl Grey/tangerine/chocolate: chocolate pate à choux, chocolate ganache, chocolate crunch, tangerine confit, Earl Gray white chocolate ganache montée

Yuzu/mango/strawberry: mango confi, fresh strawberries, Valrhona Inspiration Yuzu ganache montee

pistachio/raspberry: raspberry confit, fresh raspberries, pistachio mousseline cream with a touch of cardamom.

Hazelnut/Raspberry: raspberry confit, hazelnut mousseline cream, fresh raspberries

coffee/chocolate/pecan: pecan pralinee, chocolate crunch, coffee mousseline cream

 

[Cahoot]

Paris-Brest are not usually filled with chantilly cream and strawberries, but, why not?

The original Paris-Brest was filled with a hazelnut mousseline cream made from beating chilled pastry cream with additional butter and pralinée paste.

Modern versions often use a mousseline cream with pecan paste, pistachio paste and other nut pastes. Some versions are based on pastry cream and others are based on pate à bomb. The one I make uses pate à bombe for a silky texture with some pastry cream to give it a little body. There are also chefs using ganache montée in place of the mousseline cream. I have made the following Paris-Brest for the shop:

Black Forest: chocolate pate à choux with Kirschwasser white chocolate ganache montee, sour cherry confit, chocolate crunch and candied sour cherries

Pécan/Cranberry: cranberry confit, pécan pralinée, pécan mousseline cream

Peanut/chocolaté: chocolaté ganache, salted roasted peanuts, peanut butter mousseline cream.

Pumpkin/Pecan: pecan pralinée, pumpkin white chocolate ganache montee,

Earl Grey/tangerine/chocolate: chocolate pate à choux, chocolate ganache, chocolate crunch, tangerine confit, Earl Gray white chocolate ganache montée

Yuzu/mango/strawberry: mango confi, fresh strawberries, Valrhona Inspiration Yuzu ganache montee

pistachio/raspberry: raspberry confit, fresh raspberries, pistachio mousseline cream with a touch of cardamom.

Hazelnut/Raspberry: raspberry confit, hazelnut mousseline cream, fresh raspberries

coffee/chocolate/pecan: pecan pralinee, chocolate crunch, coffee mousseline creamView attachment 4486View attachment 4486
View attachment 4487View attachment 4488View attachment 4489View attachment 4490View attachment 4491View attachment 4492View attachment 4493View attachment 4494

Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to imply that there's anything inherenty wrong with other variations on the Paris-Brest. I'm all for different flavour combinations and reinterpretations of the classic. My point was just that the CIA textbook is completely missed the mark in teaching beginners how the pastry is traditionally made - there's no mention of praliné nor mousseline in reference to Paris-Brest.

I love all the ones you've made! I myself have eyed a few flavours such as 100% pistachio, 100% black sesame, pecan praliné/lemon cream, peanut butter/caramel/chocolate, etc., but you've given me a few ideas too. The Earl Grey/tangerine/chocolate especially has me eyeing it . I also think that I'd personally prefer ganache montée to the traditional mousseline, as I've found the high quantity of mousseline used in the pastry quite heavy.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Oh don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to imply that there's anything inherenty wrong with other variations on the Paris-Brest. I'm all for different flavour combinations and reinterpretations of the classic. My point was just that the CIA textbook is completely missed the mark in teaching beginners how the pastry is traditionally made - there's no mention of praliné nor mousseline in reference to Paris-Brest.

I love all the ones you've made! I myself have eyed a few flavours such as 100% pistachio, 100% black sesame, pecan praliné/lemon cream, peanut butter/caramel/chocolate, etc., but you've given me a few ideas too. The Earl Grey/tangerine/chocolate especially has me eyeing it . I also think that I'd personally prefer ganache montée to the traditional mousseline, as I've found the high quantity of mousseline used in the pastry quite heavy.

When I was in Italy, the head of the culinary school was a food historian. If she wanted students to leave with any understanding of food, it is the influence other cultures brought to any particular cuisine. She spoke a great deal about the influences of the Italian and French on each other given the marriages between the royal houses. These marriages didn’t just solidify political alliances, but brought exchanges of food traditions. Traditions that would make their way into the greater communities.

In this day and age with travel and computers the exchange of food traditions happens at such a rapid speed that there’s no such thing as authentic.

I’ve taken classes with a several food historians, including one who works for the Getty. The average cook and baker really has little knowledge about the history of what they are making.

And as textbooks go they are just a foundation for the fundamentals. When you complete a class or coursework, far more is taught than what is in the book.

That’s why I never stop the education process. I just recently did cake and choux classes. Just because you master something does it mean you know everything. The world of pastry is ever evolving. I subscribe to multiple publications. I continue to take classes with master bakers. I never stop the learning process.

 

[chassis]

I have to agree with Chassis. In France, the average French man or woman have better butter, better fish better produce and better cheese. Bread, not necessarily. Sadly, France has succumbed to the Industrialization of bread production. Now one must go to a boulangerie that says “ Artisinal” and I only go to places I know.

The average French person also has access to high quality ready made foods Like puff pastry, pate sucrée, and pate brisée, should they be inclined to prepare a fancy hors-d’œuvre or dessert.

I think that part of the reason produce and fish are better is that France is a s all country, compared to the US. Things don’t have to travel as far in France as the do in the US. Thus, have bred our fruits and vegetables to survive long travels. The flavor is bred right out of them In favor of tough fruit which is picked unripe so it can travel well. Some of the really fine produce never leaves California. À California Blenheim apricot is as fine as any apricot I’ve had in Europe. I live in the Midwest and try to by seasonally so thatI can get the most flavorful fruit picked at the peak of ripeness. Sadly, a Michigan apricot will never be able to rival one from California, picked in California and eaten in California.

Spot on. Tomatoes in the midwest during winter resemble lacrosse balls. Hard, somewhat compliant, sort of red-orangish, and devoid of aroma and flavor. A broken food system, generally. Specialty produce and meat markets, if they can be found at all, are few in number and provide a quality level that is just slightly better than the (broken) mainstream food system.

California's food scene, like its real estate scene and its prices, are uncomparable to most of the rest of the U.S. Limited exceptions apply (NYC, Seattle and a small number of other micro food oases).

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Spot on. Tomatoes in the midwest during winter resemble lacrosse balls. Hard, somewhat compliant, sort of red-orangish, and devoid of aroma and flavor. A broken food system, generally. Specialty produce and meat markets, if they can be found at all, are few in number and provide a quality level that is just slightly better than the (broken) mainstream food system.

California's food scene, like its real estate scene and its prices, are uncomparable to most of the rest of the U.S. Limited exceptions apply (NYC, Seattle and a small number of other micro food oases).

every state has farmers markets. It’s not just California. And every state has their variety of produce that stays within the state. New Jersey silver queen white corn can’t be purchased out of the tristate area. California may be the Cherry capital of the US but you won’t find any sour cherries here. The only place you’ll find fresh sour cherries is Michigan, Maryland, and maybe some of the tri-state areas.

Charlotte, Charleston, Atlanta, Nashville, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Portland, Chicago, Houston, Austin, Savannah are just a few of the top food city destinations in the United States.

Producing high quality meals and baked goods day in and day out require consistency and quality of ingredients. The fact that top chefs from around the world have restaurants in every major city in the US is testimony to the quality of ingredients in the US. The bias is a myth, just like the “made in Japan” equals junk myth that persisted well into the 1990’s.

 

[chassis]

@Norcalbaker59 Yes, fully agree. The cities you mention include nothing from the midwest except for Chicago, which is to be expected as it is the third largest metro in the U.S. and tons of money is there to support a quality food scene.

Between the Rockies and Appalachians is a food desert with the exception of a small number of oases.

New Jersey in its central region is a beautiful farming area as you mentioned, serving the money-laden megalopolis. The Garden State has earned its name without question.

Money supports quality food. The general mass-market food scene in the U.S. is poor quality. Very poor quality. Even if a person is willing to spend more money for better quality, it is not to be found except as mentioned in your post and the comments in this post.