Whole meal failure

[Surmanator27]

I made 2 whole meal loaves following a Paul Hollywood recipe 1kg whole meal bread flour , 30g doves active yeast 2tspsalt 600mls water 20gm butter . I kneaded for 30 mins and proved for 30 mins where the dough tripled in size . I knocked back and proved for 50 mins. The dough rose and then flopped over the side of the tins . I ended up with with 2 tee shaped loaves which were very dense in structure . Having watched a Paul Hollywood video I thought I had cracked this . Were did I go wrong???

 

[Emmie]

I'm really just starting to get better with bread and there'll be people who can offer more ideas than me but my initial thoughts are to maybe replace some of the wholemeal flour with white as wholemeal is very dense. I think it's to do with the amount or development of gluten. I feel like there's maybe not enough water there - I'd up it to 70% of the weight of the flour, i.e. 700g of water. Maybe rest a bit before kneading. How long did you knead for? For my first rise I tend to leave it an hour - 30 minutes seems quite short, but I don't know if that because it's wholemeal.

If it flopped over the sides of the tins it might be an issue of tin size, over-proving or oven temp. Did you score the dough? What kind of oven temp were you on and did you preheat for at least 20 minutes?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I made 2 whole meal loaves following a Paul Hollywood recipe 1kg whole meal bread flour , 30g doves active yeast 2tspsalt 600mls water 20gm butter . I kneaded for 30 mins and proved for 30 mins where the dough tripled in size . I knocked back and proved for 50 mins. The dough rose and then flopped over the side of the tins . I ended up with with 2 tee shaped loaves which were very dense in structure . Having watched a Paul Hollywood video I thought I had cracked this . Were did I go wrong???

Wholemeal requires 100% hydration; The recipe was only had 60% hydration.

Wholemeal is 100% extraction meaning 100% of the wheat kernel is extracted to mill the flour. So it contains the bran, germ, and endosperm.

Because it is 100% extraction it is highly hydroscopic, meaning it absorbs an exceptional amount of water. It requires 100% hydration. A high hydration formula does not using kneading, but a stretch and flour technique to build gluten.

The bran is the outer shell of the wheat kernel. It is very fibrous. As you knead the dough, the sharp bits of bran destroys the gluten network, cutting it apart as you knead. The more you knead, the more you damage the gluten network.

Stretch and fold builds gluten while preventing damage to the gluten network because it doesn’t repeatedly press the bran bits through the dough by roughly folding, pressing, and rolling it over and over on itself.

Wholemeal flour by its nature produces a very low rising bread because it is 100% extraction. Everything made with wholemeal flour will be dense and heavy. It is the nature of the beast.

Because of the issues with using all wholemeal, it is generally mixed with high protein flour. High protein flour is about 73% extraction (27% of the bran and germ removed)

Making a decent wholemeal loaf is possible, but it is not something for a novice baker. And it is definitely not possible with a badly written 60% hydration formula.

 

[Emmie]

Wholemeal requires 100% hydration; The recipe was only had 60% hydration.

Wholemeal is 100% extraction meaning 100% of the wheat kernel is extracted to mill the flour. So it contains the bran, germ, and endosperm.

Because it is 100% extraction it is highly hydroscopic, meaning it absorbs an exceptional amount of water. It requires 100% hydration. A high hydration formula does not using kneading, but a stretch and flour technique to build gluten.

The bran is the outer shell of the wheat kernel. It is very fibrous. As you knead the dough, the sharp bits of bran destroys the gluten network, cutting it apart as you knead. The more you knead, the more you damage the gluten network.

Stretch and fold builds gluten while preventing damage to the gluten network because it doesn’t repeatedly press the bran bits through the dough by roughly folding, pressing, and rolling it over and over on itself.

Wholemeal flour by its nature produces a very low rising bread because it is 100% extraction. Everything made with wholemeal flour will be dense and heavy. It is the nature of the beast.

Because of the issues with using all wholemeal, it is generally mixed with high protein flour. High protein flour is about 73% extraction (27% of the bran and germ removed)

Making a decent wholemeal loaf is possible, but it is not something for a novice baker. And it is definitely not possible with a badly written 60% hydration formula.

This is really useful! I did think that seemed low hydration but wasn't aware it was 100%! I think I've seen the stretch and fold technique, or something similar, from Richard Bertinet. I'll have a look in his book. I'm nowhere near brave enough to try wholemeal yet - too many things to go wrong!

 

[Emmie]

Wholemeal requires 100% hydration; The recipe was only had 60% hydration.

Wholemeal is 100% extraction meaning 100% of the wheat kernel is extracted to mill the flour. So it contains the bran, germ, and endosperm.

Because it is 100% extraction it is highly hydroscopic, meaning it absorbs an exceptional amount of water. It requires 100% hydration. A high hydration formula does not using kneading, but a stretch and flour technique to build gluten.

The bran is the outer shell of the wheat kernel. It is very fibrous. As you knead the dough, the sharp bits of bran destroys the gluten network, cutting it apart as you knead. The more you knead, the more you damage the gluten network.

Stretch and fold builds gluten while preventing damage to the gluten network because it doesn’t repeatedly press the bran bits through the dough by roughly folding, pressing, and rolling it over and over on itself.

Wholemeal flour by its nature produces a very low rising bread because it is 100% extraction. Everything made with wholemeal flour will be dense and heavy. It is the nature of the beast.

Because of the issues with using all wholemeal, it is generally mixed with high protein flour. High protein flour is about 73% extraction (27% of the bran and germ removed)

Making a decent wholemeal loaf is possible, but it is not something for a novice baker. And it is definitely not possible with a badly written 60% hydration formula.

This is him:

From him I've learned to try and get the dough as wet as possible but haven't tried this method yet. Maybe that's one to try for my loaf tomorrow!

 

[Surmanator27]

Wholemeal requires 100% hydration; The recipe was only had 60% hydration.

Wholemeal is 100% extraction meaning 100% of the wheat kernel is extracted to mill the flour. So it contains the bran, germ, and endosperm.

Because it is 100% extraction it is highly hydroscopic, meaning it absorbs an exceptional amount of water. It requires 100% hydration. A high hydration formula does not using kneading, but a stretch and flour technique to build gluten.

The bran is the outer shell of the wheat kernel. It is very fibrous. As you knead the dough, the sharp bits of bran destroys the gluten network, cutting it apart as you knead. The more you knead, the more you damage the gluten network.

Stretch and fold builds gluten while preventing damage to the gluten network because it doesn’t repeatedly press the bran bits through the dough by roughly folding, pressing, and rolling it over and over on itself.

Wholemeal flour by its nature produces a very low rising bread because it is 100% extraction. Everything made with wholemeal flour will be dense and heavy. It is the nature of the beast.

Because of the issues with using all wholemeal, it is generally mixed with high protein flour. High protein flour is about 73% extraction (27% of the bran and germ removed)

Making a decent wholemeal loaf is possible, but it is not something for a novice baker. And it is definitely not possible with a badly written 60% hydration formula.

Thanks for this it really explains a lot I on reviewing the recipe it does call for more water Which I admit I got wrong . I used a kneading technique which I had learnt for white bread . My whole meal loaf went on the bird table . I made a seeded loaf that my biggest critic (my wife) loved . She wants me to bake a loaf that resembles shop bought that you can make sandwiches out of. On the first prove I was conscious of over proving it had almost quadrupled in size. Once again thank you for the feedback.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

This is him:

From him I've learned to try and get the dough as wet as possible but haven't tried this method yet. Maybe that's one to try for my loaf tomorrow!

This is another technique called slap and fold. You don’t want to use this with a high extraction flour because the bran will cut through the gluten network and damage it.

Stretch and fold is just a gentle stretch and fold of the dough. It’s repeated four times and the dough is rested. Depending on the type of bread you’re making rest intervals can be anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes.


If you’re interested in exploring sourdough the links below are a few good sites to check out.

How to create a sourdough starter

Making an Incredible Sourdough Starter from Scratch in 7 Easy Steps

A step-by-step guide to making an incredible sourdough starter from scratch in 7 easy steps. Start baking sourdough bread at home with a new yeast starter!

www.theperfectloaf.com

Pain naturel

Sourdough pain naturel – Weekend Bakery

www.weekendbakery.com

Wholemeal blend

Our favorite whole wheat levain loaf – Weekend Bakery

www.weekendbakery.com

How to stretch & fold. But you really don’t even have to turn it onto a counter. If you have a wide shallow bowl you can stretch and fold in the bowl. Just lightly wet your hands and bench scraper, and stretch & fold in bowl.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thanks for this it really explains a lot I on reviewing the recipe it does call for more water Which I admit I got wrong . I used a kneading technique which I had learnt for white bread . My whole meal loaf went on the bird table . I made a seeded loaf that my biggest critic (my wife) loved . She wants me to bake a loaf that resembles shop bought that you can make sandwiches out of. On the first prove I was conscious of over proving it had almost quadrupled in size. Once again thank you for the feedback.

Bread is the simplest in so far as the ingredients list, but the most complex in so far as the baking goes. It takes a lot of time to study and practice to master bread.

But keep at it and you will get there.

 

[Laurence]

I know I'm hopelessly late to the party, but I can't help noticing the amount of yeast in your formula. I make something similar and 10g would be more than enough.
My suspicion is that your dough is over-proofed to such an extent that the gluten structure has been disrupted and won't hold any gas.
As for the hydration, we each have our own experience - I use around 64-68% hydration for stoneground wholemeal and that works out fine (and isn't so messy to work with!).

 

[retired baker]

I made 2 whole meal loaves following a Paul Hollywood recipe 1kg whole meal bread flour , 30g doves active yeast 2tspsalt 600mls water 20gm butter . I kneaded for 30 mins and proved for 30 mins where the dough tripled in size . I knocked back and proved for 50 mins. The dough rose and then flopped over the side of the tins . I ended up with with 2 tee shaped loaves which were very dense in structure . Having watched a Paul Hollywood video I thought I had cracked this . Were did I go wrong???

Simply, you over proofed it.
Proofing isn't something you do with a clock, you have to be cognizant of how fast the yeast is growing , it tells you when its time to bake, you can't tell the yeast.