Any experience with SAF Instant Premium/Purple Yeast?

[MixUp]

Dough conditioners are mostly similar I think, "a proprietary blend of sweet whey, corn flour, monocalcium phosphate, potassium bromate, and L-cysteine hydrochloride. "

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/ag...H2S3iRuhKERp33cyJnEfwxwwUmhaBRvxoCv0QQAvD_BwE

What percentage did you generally use with Reddi-Sponge? I can't imagine the same types of conditioners would work with the percentages yeast would use in dry form, so there's got to be something different about it.

I know I used to see Fermipan mentioned a long time ago in some of the older bread books, but it wasn't the new "Super 2 in 1" version they were talking about. Currently Fermipan seems to be exceedingly hard to find information on of any sort. At least on this continent. All of 2 stores seem to actually sell it, and information is scarce. Tons of information on SAF, and Red Star, but nothing on Fermipan. A yeast+conditioner is an odd product to begin with but very appealing. I know I'm interested in trying a new more potent yeast, but Fermipan vs SAF Premium seems like a confusing choice (assuming there's even a choice and it's not "different choice for different products.")

If (if!) I'm interpreting right, the SAF Premium/Purple seems to be very aggressive, and all about speeding up fermentation rapidly. I like that. Seems suitable for all doughs, but not very sweet doughs (what dough even has >12% sugar though? Even the pandoros I used to make rose just fine with normal yeast.) Gold still seems to be recommended for that, but I'm not sure I've ever even seen a recipe for a dough that sweet. Maybe a honey-molasas whole wheat counts. Basically Premium seems like super-speed normal yeast. Maybe.

Fermipan Super seems a little more specific to lean dough, and seems to emphasize use with whole wheat, though isn't exclusive to it, and still includes croissant. Since I do do a lot of whole wheat that could be beneficial. I tend to stick to 50/50 fresh whole, though I'm awaiting some seives to bolt the flour a bit depending on application.

So on one hand I have the Premium/Purple that's super fast-rising which is good, I'm time strapped and that's holding back my ability to make bread. On the other hand something that also sounds fast, (ish?) but not as fast but better for WW with Fermipan.

Technically I used to make cake-cookies out of unbolted fresh milled soft wheat and it was wonderful, didn't taste of feel like WW at all. I'm going to try yellow cake with bolted fresh soft wheat probably this weekend. I used KAF AP last time, but the hard wheat and high protein of KAF AP made me curious what my whole, unbolted, but soft wheat could do. The KAF AP gave more of a "light pound cake" texture. Good in its own right, but not the density I was hoping for. And I don't really keep bleached AP around, and I never buy cake flour at silly box size consumer prices (and don't buy enough of it to warrant storing wholesale quantities.) The only time I ever use cake flour in those overpriced boxes is angel food where there's truly no choice.

KAF AP is weird stuff. Great for bread. Mismatched for most other things, I think of it more as "light bread flour" more than actual AP. Usually AP is some blend of hard and soft wheat. KAF is 100% hard red spring wheat giving pretty high protein in an AP. I never buy bread flour.

 

[retired baker]

What percentage did you generally use with Reddi-Sponge? I can't imagine the same types of conditioners would work with the percentages yeast would use in dry form, so there's got to be something different about it.

I know I used to see Fermipan mentioned a long time ago in some of the older bread books, but it wasn't the new "Super 2 in 1" version they were talking about. Currently Fermipan seems to be exceedingly hard to find information on of any sort. At least on this continent. All of 2 stores seem to actually sell it, and information is scarce. Tons of information on SAF, and Red Star, but nothing on Fermipan. A yeast+conditioner is an odd product to begin with but very appealing. I know I'm interested in trying a new more potent yeast, but Fermipan vs SAF Premium seems like a confusing choice (assuming there's even a choice and it's not "different choice for different products.")

If (if!) I'm interpreting right, the SAF Premium/Purple seems to be very aggressive, and all about speeding up fermentation rapidly. I like that. Seems suitable for all doughs, but not very sweet doughs (what dough even has >12% sugar though? Even the pandoros I used to make rose just fine with normal yeast.) Gold still seems to be recommended for that, but I'm not sure I've ever even seen a recipe for a dough that sweet. Maybe a honey-molasas whole wheat counts. Basically Premium seems like super-speed normal yeast. Maybe.

Fermipan Super seems a little more specific to lean dough, and seems to emphasize use with whole wheat, though isn't exclusive to it, and still includes croissant. Since I do do a lot of whole wheat that could be beneficial. I tend to stick to 50/50 fresh whole, though I'm awaiting some seives to bolt the flour a bit depending on application.

So on one hand I have the Premium/Purple that's super fast-rising which is good, I'm time strapped and that's holding back my ability to make bread. On the other hand something that also sounds fast, (ish?) but not as fast but better for WW with Fermipan.

Technically I used to make cake-cookies out of unbolted fresh milled soft wheat and it was wonderful, didn't taste of feel like WW at all. I'm going to try yellow cake with bolted fresh soft wheat probably this weekend. I used KAF AP last time, but the hard wheat and high protein of KAF AP made me curious what my whole, unbolted, but soft wheat could do. The KAF AP gave more of a "light pound cake" texture. Good in its own right, but not the density I was hoping for. And I don't really keep bleached AP around, and I never buy cake flour at silly box size consumer prices (and don't buy enough of it to warrant storing wholesale quantities.) The only time I ever use cake flour in those overpriced boxes is angel food where there's truly no choice.

KAF AP is weird stuff. Great for bread. Mismatched for most other things, I think of it more as "light bread flour" more than actual AP. Usually AP is some blend of hard and soft wheat. KAF is 100% hard red spring wheat giving pretty high protein in an AP. I never buy bread flour.

I'd add a cup of redi sponge to a gal of water batch of french bread, it goes in the flour though not the water.
My preference was to add my own conditioners,that way I have control.
I can't find hi gluten flour here, might have to go amazon or order pure gluten and mix my own.
I noticed a big difference when using straight bread flour compared to hi gluten in croissant.
The only trick is not to mix the dough too much, just a cohesive dough, the folding develops the gluten.
My old boss only used regular bread flour because he didn't like the way stronger flour sucked the oil from his skin. He was funny like that. I notice my hands get itchy after working with flour now, must have copped a reaction after all these yrs.

 

[MixUp]

I'd add a cup of redi sponge to a gal of water batch of french bread, it goes in the flour though not the water.
My preference was to add my own conditioners,that way I have control.
I can't find hi gluten flour here, might have to go amazon or order pure gluten and mix my own.
I noticed a big difference when using straight bread flour compared to hi gluten in croissant.
The only trick is not to mix the dough too much, just a cohesive dough, the folding develops the gluten.
My old boss only used regular bread flour because he didn't like the way stronger flour sucked the oil from his skin. He was funny like that. I notice my hands get itchy after working with flour now, must have copped a reaction after all these yrs.

I would have thought the flour coating acted like a mud mask for your hands. Like a tasty, tasty spa treatment. I'll have to pay attention if my hands dry out more now that I'm getting back into things. Could be the yeast, too, though.

Most of the doughs I work with have some percentage of fresh milled flour, though, most of the time (not baguettes, not ciabatta, usually.) The nice thing with fresh milling is the germ is loaded with oil. You don't get that in bagged WW/bolted, the oil is already rancid or dried out entirely. I don't think the flour has the same drying properties as commercial flour due to the oils still contained, and it somewhat conditions the dough on its own a little compared to conventional commercial WW. If I were to do breads commercially at this point, I wouldn't do it without an on-site mill. The result is just a whole other product with a whole other dimension of flavor. Once you ship it from a miller, even if you get it within a few days, you've already lost the oil. It's like leaving your olive oil open on the counter for a few days before you use it.

Speaking of the French, I am still waiting for my Emile Henry pans. I just ordered 2 loaf and 2 crown pans on the sale they had last week. It's expensive, space consuming, and limiting in shapes, but I hope to build the collection over a year or so of all the pans. I got ones that fit the small countertop oven for now. The ones that need the half sheet oven have to wait. They make sort of an enclosed stone that subs for a steam injector so I dont' have to keep spraying (and it should do much better than spraying inside the convection oven that just blows the steam back at you) But they're French. They say it takes 7-10 days before they even ship the things. Due to the holidays. What holiday? National croissant week?

 

[retired baker]

I would have thought the flour coating acted like a mud mask for your hands. Like a tasty, tasty spa treatment. I'll have to pay attention if my hands dry out more now that I'm getting back into things. Could be the yeast, too, though.

Most of the doughs I work with have some percentage of fresh milled flour, though, most of the time (not baguettes, not ciabatta, usually.) The nice thing with fresh milling is the germ is loaded with oil. You don't get that in bagged WW/bolted, the oil is already rancid or dried out entirely. I don't think the flour has the same drying properties as commercial flour due to the oils still contained, and it somewhat conditions the dough on its own a little compared to conventional commercial WW. If I were to do breads commercially at this point, I wouldn't do it without an on-site mill. The result is just a whole other product with a whole other dimension of flavor. Once you ship it from a miller, even if you get it within a few days, you've already lost the oil. It's like leaving your olive oil open on the counter for a few days before you use it.

Speaking of the French, I am still waiting for my Emile Henry pans. I just ordered 2 loaf and 2 crown pans on the sale they had last week. It's expensive, space consuming, and limiting in shapes, but I hope to build the collection over a year or so of all the pans. I got ones that fit the small countertop oven for now. The ones that need the half sheet oven have to wait. They make sort of an enclosed stone that subs for a steam injector so I dont' have to keep spraying (and it should do much better than spraying inside the convection oven that just blows the steam back at you) But they're French. They say it takes 7-10 days before they even ship the things. Due to the holidays. What holiday? National croissant week?

Hahaha, the french don't like working too much, Paris shuts down during the summer for 6 weeks, they all go to the beaches in southern france, for the holiday of course.

For steam I just spray the dough before putting in the oven.
Its not as good as steam injection though.

 

[MixUp]

Hahaha, the french don't like working too much, Paris shuts down during the summer for 6 weeks, they all go to the beaches in southern france, for the holiday of course.

For steam I just spray the dough before putting in the oven.
Its not as good as steam injection though.

If they don't like working that much why do they insist on rolling dough with wooden sticks?

Summer is one thing...but Jan/Feb? Takes 2 business weeks to ship something? Sheesh. Technically they're shipping from their US subsidiary, and the US subsidiary doesn't carry France-only inventory even. Yet, they don't even list an address for the US subsidiary. I can't quite figure out how they deal with shipping or what "holiday" has them so backed up. It's a thoroughly unique experience, that's for sure. And so very very French.

For steam, particularly with the Cadco oven, the fan is very powerful. If you have a dusting of flour on top of the bread and it's not sufficiently dampened, you're going to be wearing that flour when you put it in the oven. When I'd do is stand by the oven the whole time it baked, and stand by with a spray bottle in each hand. I'd open the door, blast some steam to act as a manual injector, and slam the door. Numerous times during baking. The problem is the fan is rear-center, blowing toward the door, so every time you do that it just superheats the spray and blows it back at your face. It does work, especially if you coat the bread. Results were great, with a fantastic crust. But it's a miserable task.

The EH pans are pretty neat. Expensive beyond compare but neat in that it's a way to have a bread-oven like bake in any old oven at home. The whole thing is RC ceramic so it's like a full brick oven as a pan, and it has an unfinished domed lid that traps the steam in so it bakes like a steam injection oven inside. Different pans have different setups. There's a cloche, a long loaf pan, baguette pan, etc. The cibatta pan and loaf/pullman pan have vent holes to let some steam out to not overcrisp.

It sounds too good to be true, but the reviews of it out there are all solid. The only complaint is the size isn't what youd' think and overproofing means the dough sticks to the dome lid. It's best to under-size the loaf.

I figured I'd test pilot it with the basic sandwich loaf and crown pan for dinner rolls, and expand the collection if they work out. I could put that money into a Rofco bread oven, but I'd rather have pans that last forever in any oven for the money than rely on one specific oven that can do nothing but bread.

 

[retired baker]

If they don't like working that much why do they insist on rolling dough with wooden sticks?

Summer is one thing...but Jan/Feb? Takes 2 business weeks to ship something? Sheesh. Technically they're shipping from their US subsidiary, and the US subsidiary doesn't carry France-only inventory even. Yet, they don't even list an address for the US subsidiary. I can't quite figure out how they deal with shipping or what "holiday" has them so backed up. It's a thoroughly unique experience, that's for sure. And so very very French.

For steam, particularly with the Cadco oven, the fan is very powerful. If you have a dusting of flour on top of the bread and it's not sufficiently dampened, you're going to be wearing that flour when you put it in the oven. When I'd do is stand by the oven the whole time it baked, and stand by with a spray bottle in each hand. I'd open the door, blast some steam to act as a manual injector, and slam the door. Numerous times during baking. The problem is the fan is rear-center, blowing toward the door, so every time you do that it just superheats the spray and blows it back at your face. It does work, especially if you coat the bread. Results were great, with a fantastic crust. But it's a miserable task.

The EH pans are pretty neat. Expensive beyond compare but neat in that it's a way to have a bread-oven like bake in any old oven at home. The whole thing is RC ceramic so it's like a full brick oven as a pan, and it has an unfinished domed lid that traps the steam in so it bakes like a steam injection oven inside. Different pans have different setups. There's a cloche, a long loaf pan, baguette pan, etc. The cibatta pan and loaf/pullman pan have vent holes to let some steam out to not overcrisp.

It sounds too good to be true, but the reviews of it out there are all solid. The only complaint is the size isn't what youd' think and overproofing means the dough sticks to the dome lid. It's best to under-size the loaf.

I figured I'd test pilot it with the basic sandwich loaf and crown pan for dinner rolls, and expand the collection if they work out. I could put that money into a Rofco bread oven, but I'd rather have pans that last forever in any oven for the money than rely on one specific oven that can do nothing but bread.

Well as I said, if their sheeting machines break down they would be unable to roll croissant dough out.
They're gone down a road of no return.

I've ordered tools directly from MORA in Paris, very expensive , I don't recall any great delay but it was specialty stuff that wasn't needed for daily production.

You could pull a fiberglass mold from those expensive bread pots.
Or take a pottery class. I'd be looking for a cheaper solution, I'm cheap.

 

[MixUp]

Well as I said, if their sheeting machines break down they would be unable to roll croissant dough out.
They're gone down a road of no return.

I've ordered tools directly from MORA in Paris, very expensive , I don't recall any great delay but it was specialty stuff that wasn't needed for daily production.

You could pull a fiberglass mold from those expensive bread pots.
Or take a pottery class. I'd be looking for a cheaper solution, I'm cheap.

Though the volume they're probably doing, even with bearing pins they'd probably be down with the sheeter.

Maybe EH ships from New Orleans and they're busy readying for Mardi gras. Or maybe they ship from Paris to some importer outfit here that forwards it to delivery. Even though their distributors already have inventory. KAF alone has all the pieces though maybe not in all the colors. All three of them. they sent an email that the order isn't forgotten and they're running late for the holidays. Maybe holiday means sale... It was 20% off bread gear for a week. But that's only a fraction of their catalog. And doesn't include their commercial cookware.

Some of the price is because they can. Some is because it's a smallish craft manufacturer in France. And are part of Mauviel. Same family ownership. They're boutique gouging, no doubt, but I do realize sophisticated ceramics don't come cheap, and never have. It's not basic stoneware but "space age"for lack of better term, ceramics. In theory it has the heat properties of heavy fibrament stones at only a few lbs as a refractive material rather than absorbent. Kind of like space shuttle heat tiles. And enhanced, structurally so that it's thermal shock tolerant and impact resistant..... Fancy stuff. Fancier price. We'll see if it's worth it.

I'm not thrilled with the price at all... But I'll see if these trial pieces live up to the hype. The ability to "cheat" in any old oven with special pans to get a proper steam oven result might be worth it's price tag, long term. I'm not thrilled about having to store a bunch of non stackable expensive 15" ceramics though

Some complained that the baguette pans don't make proper baguettes... Too thin and small. I find it hard to believe a French bespoke pan company would make incorrect baguette forms. It may not be law, but France takes that stuff as a matter of pride. Unlike the extreme of Italy. In Italy the specifics of espresso dose, grind, roast, extraction time, and shot volume are actually codified into law. As is the wheat, hydration, and drying of pasta. Only Italy would govern recipes through the legal system.

If the pans don't work out I'll have to get a fibrament half sheet cut and go back to spraying. I have quarry tiles, and they're ok, but just ok.

 

[retired baker]

Though the volume they're probably doing, even with bearing pins they'd probably be down with the sheeter.

Maybe EH ships from New Orleans and they're busy readying for Mardi gras. Or maybe they ship from Paris to some importer outfit here that forwards it to delivery. Even though their distributors already have inventory. KAF alone has all the pieces though maybe not in all the colors. All three of them. they sent an email that the order isn't forgotten and they're running late for the holidays. Maybe holiday means sale... It was 20% off bread gear for a week. But that's only a fraction of their catalog. And doesn't include their commercial cookware.

Some of the price is because they can. Some is because it's a smallish craft manufacturer in France. And are part of Mauviel. Same family ownership. They're boutique gouging, no doubt, but I do realize sophisticated ceramics don't come cheap, and never have. It's not basic stoneware but "space age"for lack of better term, ceramics. In theory it has the heat properties of heavy fibrament stones at only a few lbs as a refractive material rather than absorbent. Kind of like space shuttle heat tiles. And enhanced, structurally so that it's thermal shock tolerant and impact resistant..... Fancy stuff. Fancier price. We'll see if it's worth it.

I'm not thrilled with the price at all... But I'll see if these trial pieces live up to the hype. The ability to "cheat" in any old oven with special pans to get a proper steam oven result might be worth it's price tag, long term. I'm not thrilled about having to store a bunch of non stackable expensive 15" ceramics though

Some complained that the baguette pans don't make proper baguettes... Too thin and small. I find it hard to believe a French bespoke pan company would make incorrect baguette forms. It may not be law, but France takes that stuff as a matter of pride. Unlike the extreme of Italy. In Italy the specifics of espresso dose, grind, roast, extraction time, and shot volume are actually codified into law. As is the wheat, hydration, and drying of pasta. Only Italy would govern recipes through the legal system.

If the pans don't work out I'll have to get a fibrament half sheet cut and go back to spraying. I have quarry tiles, and they're ok, but just ok.

I can't see a baguette fitting in a home oven, it will be a demi or batard size.
My brother ran a bakery that used a rack oven with steam, it made steam by spraying water into a side chamber filled with stainless ball bearings. I was never able to duplicate that level of steam, his bread was the same as mine but the steam crust was very distinct. The cost of that oven was out of my price range.

I tried brushing water on the bread, then throwing a cup of water in the oven after a few minutes.
One time the 2 lighbulbs exploded from the cold water.
Never did replace those bulbs, eventually the gas burners got rust damage, they're cast iron.
Burner manifold had to be replaced. I had a dual stack of blodgetts. Still miss those ovens.

 

[MixUp]

I can't see a baguette fitting in a home oven, it will be a demi or batard size.
My brother ran a bakery that used a rack oven with steam, it made steam by spraying water into a side chamber filled with stainless ball bearings. I was never able to duplicate that level of steam, his bread was the same as mine but the steam crust was very distinct. The cost of that oven was out of my price range.

I tried brushing water on the bread, then throwing a cup of water in the oven after a few minutes.
One time the 2 lighbulbs exploded from the cold water.
Never did replace those bulbs, eventually the gas burners got rust damage, they're cast iron.
Burner manifold had to be replaced. I had a dual stack of blodgetts. Still miss those ovens.

How long is a "real" baguette? I used to make them... They really turned out great, though the dough condition wasn't great for scoring for pretty slits... This was before the brod & Taylor proofers were out. With the half sheet ovens i had 18"to work with, but generally went 15" for workability. The EH pans are 13.5 or 14.5, be can't remember. Any longer isn't practical for ceramics, though if the French are willing to call it a proper baguette, I'm in no position to disagree. At least they don't regulate what a baguette is the way Italy regulates the making of everything from espresso to pasta to Pizza.

But the real French baker here has baguettes only slightly longer than mine were. Maybe 18"or so. Enough to be ungainly getting it home but not enough to actually fall out if the bag entirely (usually.). I'd ask him, but I can never understand half of what he says and he often doesn't understand what others say.... Any time i place a morning order i always hope i get one of the counter girls.... If i get him, I'm never sure if he really got the order.

Hah yeah, real-real steam ovens are a wonderful thing. I actually got my crusts very very close to the real ovens in my little Cadco with my twin spray bottles and oven door abuse technique, but it's just SUCH a process to deal with. You don't leave the oven. Ever. Still the crusts were heavenly. They'd flake so beautifully when you cut them.

My oven has no lights so at least i avoid one problem..... My approach put only a little water directly on the loaves. Most of it went to the stone, walls, and abusively, at the fan. It the splash panel around it. That circulated steam a lot like a real steam oven.

That trick wouldn't have worked on the Blodgetts though. We're they full brick/fibrament pizza/bread type ovens? Or rack type?

The commercial ovens I'm most familiar with are those cavernous carousel tray ovens built into the structure. Those things are like a whole other universe of baking. What i wouldn't give for one of those, and the square footage to fit one...

 

[retired baker]

How long is a "real" baguette? I used to make them... They really turned out great, though the dough condition wasn't great for scoring for pretty slits... This was before the brod & Taylor proofers were out. With the half sheet ovens i had 18"to work with, but generally went 15" for workability. The EH pans are 13.5 or 14.5, be can't remember. Any longer isn't practical for ceramics, though if the French are willing to call it a proper baguette, I'm in no position to disagree. At least they don't regulate what a baguette is the way Italy regulates the making of everything from espresso to pasta to Pizza.

But the real French baker here has baguettes only slightly longer than mine were. Maybe 18"or so. Enough to be ungainly getting it home but not enough to actually fall out if the bag entirely (usually.). I'd ask him, but I can never understand half of what he says and he often doesn't understand what others say.... Any time i place a morning order i always hope i get one of the counter girls.... If i get him, I'm never sure if he really got the order.

Hah yeah, real-real steam ovens are a wonderful thing. I actually got my crusts very very close to the real ovens in my little Cadco with my twin spray bottles and oven door abuse technique, but it's just SUCH a process to deal with. You don't leave the oven. Ever. Still the crusts were heavenly. They'd flake so beautifully when you cut them.

My oven has no lights so at least i avoid one problem..... My approach put only a little water directly on the loaves. Most of it went to the stone, walls, and abusively, at the fan. It the splash panel around it. That circulated steam a lot like a real steam oven.

That trick wouldn't have worked on the Blodgetts though. We're they full brick/fibrament pizza/bread type ovens? Or rack type?

The commercial ovens I'm most familiar with are those cavernous carousel tray ovens built into the structure. Those things are like a whole other universe of baking. What i wouldn't give for one of those, and the square footage to fit one...

Sheetpans are 24" long, a baguette fits on the tray. 18 inch sounds a bit short.
Midsized is a batard, bastard size, think bastard file.
The big carousel or ferris wheel ovens have had their day, so many smaller ovens are more suitable unless you're a continuous factory. I worked on one that was oil fired, thats old.

My blodgetts were like this but gas fired...and double stack.

 

[retired baker]

How long is a "real" baguette? I used to make them... They really turned out great, though the dough condition wasn't great for scoring for pretty slits... This was before the brod & Taylor proofers were out. With the half sheet ovens i had 18"to work with, but generally went 15" for workability. The EH pans are 13.5 or 14.5, be can't remember. Any longer isn't practical for ceramics, though if the French are willing to call it a proper baguette, I'm in no position to disagree. At least they don't regulate what a baguette is the way Italy regulates the making of everything from espresso to pasta to Pizza.

But the real French baker here has baguettes only slightly longer than mine were. Maybe 18"or so. Enough to be ungainly getting it home but not enough to actually fall out if the bag entirely (usually.). I'd ask him, but I can never understand half of what he says and he often doesn't understand what others say.... Any time i place a morning order i always hope i get one of the counter girls.... If i get him, I'm never sure if he really got the order.

Hah yeah, real-real steam ovens are a wonderful thing. I actually got my crusts very very close to the real ovens in my little Cadco with my twin spray bottles and oven door abuse technique, but it's just SUCH a process to deal with. You don't leave the oven. Ever. Still the crusts were heavenly. They'd flake so beautifully when you cut them.

My oven has no lights so at least i avoid one problem..... My approach put only a little water directly on the loaves. Most of it went to the stone, walls, and abusively, at the fan. It the splash panel around it. That circulated steam a lot like a real steam oven.

That trick wouldn't have worked on the Blodgetts though. We're they full brick/fibrament pizza/bread type ovens? Or rack type?

The commercial ovens I'm most familiar with are those cavernous carousel tray ovens built into the structure. Those things are like a whole other universe of baking. What i wouldn't give for one of those, and the square footage to fit one...

I'm proofing chinese tangzhong bread, similar to milk bread.
Some of the flour is cooked in a pan with water til it thickens, cooled and mixed in with the dough.
Not sure what that does but the bread looks great in the video.

 

[MixUp]

Sheetpans are 24" long, a baguette fits on the tray. 18 inch sounds a bit short.
Midsized is a batard, bastard size, think bastard file.
The big carousel or ferris wheel ovens have had their day, so many smaller ovens are more suitable unless you're a continuous factory. I worked on one that was oil fired, thats old.

My blodgetts were like this but gas fired...and double stack.

I assume he's lining the baguettes more per pan across the 18" width to stack more per shelf rather than arranging length-wise. Ironically, the only 24" baguettes or "italian bread" (thick baguettes) I've ever seen in person is the supermarket bakery. They taste like cardboard with a Palmolive poolish and a cup of vinegar. Not sure they even have them anymore. So most baguettes I find are batard. Feels wrong to call them that, though. Usually batard is the description I'd use for oval/torpedo type rustic loaves. A ciabatta is a ciabatta. A baguette is a baguette. In my mind anyway.

I know, I know, the modern ovens have changed it all and freed up space, but there's just something about those big carousel ovens....the new ones can do a lot of things right, but nothing quite seems to do what those did. I'm not sure how. Something about that cavern of heat inside promoted an evenness that even the best of modern rack ovens seem to lack. Any time I find a bakery that has the textures "just right", it's always with a carousel oven. The places cooking in modern ovens have modern textures....I can't put a finger on it, but it's just something missing.

...I say as I fix my Cadco...

Nice Blodgetts (aren't they all?) I don't know, sidestepping to Avantco might be let down. They look decent, but from all reviews there's a lot lacking in them. Not sure. I'm still kind of frightened to see what condition my Cadco is in. I have to get the replacement cord on, still, but I'm reluctant to fire it up. It hasn't been used for long enough, and with the old steam spraying, I do worry about rusted bearings in the motor and such. There are things I don't like about it. The blower is too powerful and cakes and such don't like that. You can't turn it off. But it's a really nice oven, otherwise.


That bread is interesting looking! Asian breads are like a whole other world. I spent a long time thinking bread wasn't even a thing in Asia. Boy was I wrong! The step of cooking the flour first is very unique. My first thought is that it's gelatinizing the starch. Sort of a roux for bread dough. Really unique and really interesting. The end result looks phenomenal. If a little alien. I'm curious to know how yours turns out!

 

[MixUp]

https://bakeryequipment.com/productdetail.php?ProductID=17783

Wow, a modern-ish version. Those things still command a pretty penny in the extreme!

 

[retired baker]

https://bakeryequipment.com/productdetail.php?ProductID=17783

Wow, a modern-ish version. Those things still command a pretty penny in the extreme!

Yep I remember those ovens have a side door, you can walk inside to sweep them out.

 

[MixUp]

If I only had 13000 and about 108sq feet to spare.....

 

[MixUp]

Figures, webstaurantstore changes their shipping quotes all the time. Now adding Fermipan to my cart ups shipping by $15. Ugh! Still stuck with it. Nobody else has it.

I finally did the project of replacing the cord on my oven. They have a weird connector system for it. The wire's screwed into a terminal box, which screws into the oven. The internal wires of the oven have flat spade clips that connect onto the prongs on the back of the terminal box. The terminal box, in addition to 2 screws, also has two tabs that snap into the oven, and from there, 3 plastic lock tabs that clip hard into the hole and have to be bent with a little screwdriver in slots to unclip them. It took an hour. You unclip one and the other clips back in.

When I finally got it loose, it came out with a sudden rough pull. I found something interesting inside. The white lead on the wire on the INSIDE of the oven (with the spade clip attached), has a slice through the insulation with the internal wire exposed. At first I thought I caused that with the sudden pull of the wires at some force when the terminal box broke free. But I stuck my fingers in and felt around inside and there's nothing sharp there that could have caused that. The hole itself could have abraded it like a scrape, but not a slice straight down like that. And it wasn't insects or pests. No signs of rodents and no way for them to really get in there, and insets would have chwed unevenly, this was a clean blade-like score, down the length of part of the wire. I wrapped it in electrical tape best I could, though in hindsight I wish now I'd done it more heavily - with heat that will crack and fall off. But I'm not taking the terminal box back off and risking more wire damage again.

That slice in the insulation of the internal wiring of the oven could only have come from the factory. No pests did it, pulling it couldn't have done it. It must have been like that when it was made and has been that way the whole time. Moreover, while the power cord itself is nice, heavy gauge copper conductor, all the wiring inside the oven appears to be only medium gauge, and is aluminum wire. I could dream big and pretend it's silver plated copper (SPC), but probably not. So an oven running mostly low-ish gauge aluminum or SPC wire after a spade plug at the end of the cord. Nice. With one of the leads having the insulation scored through to the wire (now electrical-taped over, at least for now.) I also found a few kibbles of tempered glass inside in the bottom. Coincidentally the first unit I received had shipping damage and the glass was shattered out with some inside. How is it the replacement also had some glass inside?

So, this is, apparently, what you get with a $1000 (750 at the time) Italian-made commercial NSF/UL/CE oven.

I'm terrified to think of what Avantco is selling for $400, a decade plus later.


All that being said, after I got that all squared away, I fired it up. It turned right on like it never missed a day. Its been sitting idle for years! I didn't bring it up to full temp, it's still dirty inside, I still have filthy quarry tiles inside, and I still have stuff sitting on top of it I have to clear away before I can use it. I brought it up to 250-ish or so over 5-10 minutes and tested that the thermostat turns on and off if I move the dial, or open it up and let it cool. Everything seems fine. So, wiring issues aside, it seems I have my oven back again! Or at least I will once I get it all cleaned up. I still will use the toaster oven for smaller things and things like pizzas where I don't want all those savory fumes and oils caking up in the "bread/baking" oven.

I also polished and scrubbed down the 3 wire racks. They had a lot of surface rust on them just sitting around, but thankfully they're SS and not chrome and polished back up to a sparkling shine. Now I have 7 more half sheets to scrub down, toss the stupid Silpats, and clean the oven itself....


EDIT: Back on Blodgetts and carousels: It's incredible what the capacity and output was of old stores was/is versus the new. You had the rack of Blodgetts. Another shop around has I think the same setup. I always assumed that was just his overflow oven, but it sounds like that may be his main oven. Sounds surreal to me. The capacity is a fraction of the old stores. You could do, what, 8, 10 pans at a time? Those carousels could fit that on a single shelf with 6 more ready and waiting. And you could tell. The modern shops have a menu of 20 or so things. Those old shops cranked out 40+ items. 3 dozen cookie varieties alone. The pies, the pastries, breads, the coffee cakes, the specialty products, the cakes, the cupcakes. They used all that oven space. The old stores still do. They still have a whole walk-in room lined in glass counters with myriad of products. I didn't even realize you don't see that so much in the modern stores.

Heck, even the supermarkets and Paneras don't turn out that kind of variety, and they do more volume than the average bakery. Rack ovens everywhere. But nowhere near the capacity of those revolving tray ovens.

 

[retired baker]

Figures, webstaurantstore changes their shipping quotes all the time. Now adding Fermipan to my cart ups shipping by $15. Ugh! Still stuck with it. Nobody else has it.

I finally did the project of replacing the cord on my oven. They have a weird connector system for it. The wire's screwed into a terminal box, which screws into the oven. The internal wires of the oven have flat spade clips that connect onto the prongs on the back of the terminal box. The terminal box, in addition to 2 screws, also has two tabs that snap into the oven, and from there, 3 plastic lock tabs that clip hard into the hole and have to be bent with a little screwdriver in slots to unclip them. It took an hour. You unclip one and the other clips back in.

When I finally got it loose, it came out with a sudden rough pull. I found something interesting inside. The white lead on the wire on the INSIDE of the oven (with the spade clip attached), has a slice through the insulation with the internal wire exposed. At first I thought I caused that with the sudden pull of the wires at some force when the terminal box broke free. But I stuck my fingers in and felt around inside and there's nothing sharp there that could have caused that. The hole itself could have abraded it like a scrape, but not a slice straight down like that. And it wasn't insects or pests. No signs of rodents and no way for them to really get in there, and insets would have chwed unevenly, this was a clean blade-like score, down the length of part of the wire. I wrapped it in electrical tape best I could, though in hindsight I wish now I'd done it more heavily - with heat that will crack and fall off. But I'm not taking the terminal box back off and risking more wire damage again.

That slice in the insulation of the internal wiring of the oven could only have come from the factory. No pests did it, pulling it couldn't have done it. It must have been like that when it was made and has been that way the whole time. Moreover, while the power cord itself is nice, heavy gauge copper conductor, all the wiring inside the oven appears to be only medium gauge, and is aluminum wire. I could dream big and pretend it's silver plated copper (SPC), but probably not. So an oven running mostly low-ish gauge aluminum or SPC wire after a spade plug at the end of the cord. Nice. With one of the leads having the insulation scored through to the wire (now electrical-taped over, at least for now.) I also found a few kibbles of tempered glass inside in the bottom. Coincidentally the first unit I received had shipping damage and the glass was shattered out with some inside. How is it the replacement also had some glass inside?

So, this is, apparently, what you get with a $1000 (750 at the time) Italian-made commercial NSF/UL/CE oven.

I'm terrified to think of what Avantco is selling for $400, a decade plus later.


All that being said, after I got that all squared away, I fired it up. It turned right on like it never missed a day. Its been sitting idle for years! I didn't bring it up to full temp, it's still dirty inside, I still have filthy quarry tiles inside, and I still have stuff sitting on top of it I have to clear away before I can use it. I brought it up to 250-ish or so over 5-10 minutes and tested that the thermostat turns on and off if I move the dial, or open it up and let it cool. Everything seems fine. So, wiring issues aside, it seems I have my oven back again! Or at least I will once I get it all cleaned up. I still will use the toaster oven for smaller things and things like pizzas where I don't want all those savory fumes and oils caking up in the "bread/baking" oven.

I also polished and scrubbed down the 3 wire racks. They had a lot of surface rust on them just sitting around, but thankfully they're SS and not chrome and polished back up to a sparkling shine. Now I have 7 more half sheets to scrub down, toss the stupid Silpats, and clean the oven itself....


EDIT: Back on Blodgetts and carousels: It's incredible what the capacity and output was of old stores was/is versus the new. You had the rack of Blodgetts. Another shop around has I think the same setup. I always assumed that was just his overflow oven, but it sounds like that may be his main oven. Sounds surreal to me. The capacity is a fraction of the old stores. You could do, what, 8, 10 pans at a time? Those carousels could fit that on a single shelf with 6 more ready and waiting. And you could tell. The modern shops have a menu of 20 or so things. Those old shops cranked out 40+ items. 3 dozen cookie varieties alone. The pies, the pastries, breads, the coffee cakes, the specialty products, the cakes, the cupcakes. They used all that oven space. The old stores still do. They still have a whole walk-in room lined in glass counters with myriad of products. I didn't even realize you don't see that so much in the modern stores.

Heck, even the supermarkets and Paneras don't turn out that kind of variety, and they do more volume than the average bakery. Rack ovens everywhere. But nowhere near the capacity of those revolving tray ovens.

That alum wire might be tinned copper, its expensive, I used it to wire my boat yrs ago.
Or maybe just alum, its common in moist enviroments, we used alum to connect a blodgett dishwasher.

I bought a 21 gal compressor for my garage, it came from china wired incorrectly internally.
Had to take it apart and rewire it, it just sat there humming .

Bakeries work from the freezer mostly, daily items are bread and croissant, danish but danish can be made up and frozen, then pull, defrost, proof and bake.
Cookies are usually all done on a slow day for the week, either bake the lot or freeze slugs of dough, cakes are frozen, cheesecake freezes perfect.
Eclair shells freeze nicely if bagged properly.

 

[MixUp]

That alum wire might be tinned copper, its expensive, I used it to wire my boat yrs ago.
Or maybe just alum, its common in moist enviroments, we used alum to connect a blodgett dishwasher.

I bought a 21 gal compressor for my garage, it came from china wired incorrectly internally.
Had to take it apart and rewire it, it just sat there humming .

Bakeries work from the freezer mostly, daily items are bread and croissant, danish but danish can be made up and frozen, then pull, defrost, proof and bake.
Cookies are usually all done on a slow day for the week, either bake the lot or freeze slugs of dough, cakes are frozen, cheesecake freezes perfect.
Eclair shells freeze nicely if bagged properly.

I'll close my eyes and pretend it's tinned copper...... With factory sliced insulation...

You expect that sort of thing from factories in China...QC is most of the time absent entirely. But it always amazes me that Italy is just one step above that. I've seen espresso machines. Big 3 and 4 group 12k+ commercial machines miswired. Usually in ways that it actually works but shouldn't. Or damage on the inside that clearly happened at the factory. They'll fix it. In 3 months. 5 if it's July.

Heck even the Germans were selling $1900 commercial grinders where the 110v version was an electrical disaster that ate itself. They worked out eventually.

i have zero freezer space but I've even started working from the freezer for pasta. The dough actually performs better. It lets the let's the flour hydrate fully. Processing it is effortless and clean after that... And fast. I wish o had a ton more freezer space. I could keep a much better kitchen schedule!

My supermarket has cake yeast! For $3 for 2oz. Just the anise Easter bread batch i want to make would take more than one. I'm not paying $6 for yeast for breads.

I may have to get saf gold for that though. 13% sugar. Excluding the milk and butter and eggs...

I want fermipan for whole wheat, saf premium for eveything else, and i guess saf gold for enriched. Never used it before. It's geared towards pastry but i never so home pastry.

On and EH finally got around to shipping my pans. And they sent it signature required. This is going to be a looong journey.

 

[MixUp]

On the earlier topic of dough conditioners, I'm also curious what you use in terms of milk for doughs? Scalding is a complete PITA and in cramped quarters, my stove is my work surface, partially, so it just adds ungainly steps to the process. The bakery solution is of course heat treated dry milk. But buying that 50# at a time isn't practical, and the only way to get smaller quantities is KAF's "Baker's Special Dry Milk" for $10 a pound + $30,324.86 S&H.

I'm tempted to jump into it anyway, even at high prices. But it comes out to like $1.25/loaf with shipping. Ugh.


Same conundrum with conditioner. $20 for 10lb of Reddi Sponge, but I don't need (or have anywhere to store) 10#, yet it ends up being the same price getting a 4lb can or less of some other dough conditioner. KAF has a small jar of "cake conditioner" that works for dough, and a whole wheat conditioner in 1lb bags for exhorbitant prices. I'd like to get away from buying individual vital gluten and diastatic barley etc. Too many canisters on the counter. I still need the buttermilk and separated eggs canisters though.



I have to replace most of my sheet pans, too. I pulled them out of mothballs. I had 8 pans stacked with a Silpat between each. In the intervening years it's as though the Silpats partially melted/bonded with the pans, or somehow reacted with the aluminum to form yellowish pits in the surface. Either way the pans all now have a "diamond deck" type pattern of raised yellow silicone/plastic pattern into it. I think I might as well through all the Silpats out if they're degrading like that....not sure putting food on them and baking them is a great plan. A few hundred bucks of Silpats down the tubes. I might just get full sheet parchment and fold them in half for the half sheet pans. But I fear the pans will now bake unevenly with that plasticky "spacer" between the metal and the parchment in non-uniform locations.

2 or 3 of the pans are mostly destroyed - badly discolored across 1/2 the pan....not sure how the Silpats interracted with it. That one was the "white" border Matfer branded Silpats vs. the orange banded ones.

After this, I'm not sure I'd ever touch a Silpat ever again.


EDIT: Also, back on a previous topic, Webstaurantstore drives me crazy with their shipping pricing. I have a cart loaded up - shipping is $19. I add a pack of yeast, shipping jumps to $31. I add two different yeasts, shipping goes to $54. I remove the yeasts, and add a 10# box of dough conditioner, shipping goes to $60.41. Shipping jumped over $40 to add 1 10lb box. I clear my cart and add ONLY the dough conditioner. Shipping is $16.95.

One time a year ago, I saw my shipping price go down when I added one heavy product. They really need a better system. Great store, great prices, and if you can game the shipping you can get great deals, but it's so much overwhelming effort it's like being a day trader to figure out what items to add to which cart to get the best price. And sometimes it makes no sense. Add a pipe cleaner, pay $15 more. Add a case of olive oil, shipping drops $4.

 

[retired baker]

On the earlier topic of dough conditioners, I'm also curious what you use in terms of milk for doughs? Scalding is a complete PITA and in cramped quarters, my stove is my work surface, partially, so it just adds ungainly steps to the process. The bakery solution is of course heat treated dry milk. But buying that 50# at a time isn't practical, and the only way to get smaller quantities is KAF's "Baker's Special Dry Milk" for $10 a pound + $30,324.86 S&H.

I'm tempted to jump into it anyway, even at high prices. But it comes out to like $1.25/loaf with shipping. Ugh.


Same conundrum with conditioner. $20 for 10lb of Reddi Sponge, but I don't need (or have anywhere to store) 10#, yet it ends up being the same price getting a 4lb can or less of some other dough conditioner. KAF has a small jar of "cake conditioner" that works for dough, and a whole wheat conditioner in 1lb bags for exhorbitant prices. I'd like to get away from buying individual vital gluten and diastatic barley etc. Too many canisters on the counter. I still need the buttermilk and separated eggs canisters though.



I have to replace most of my sheet pans, too. I pulled them out of mothballs. I had 8 pans stacked with a Silpat between each. In the intervening years it's as though the Silpats partially melted/bonded with the pans, or somehow reacted with the aluminum to form yellowish pits in the surface. Either way the pans all now have a "diamond deck" type pattern of raised yellow silicone/plastic pattern into it. I think I might as well through all the Silpats out if they're degrading like that....not sure putting food on them and baking them is a great plan. A few hundred bucks of Silpats down the tubes. I might just get full sheet parchment and fold them in half for the half sheet pans. But I fear the pans will now bake unevenly with that plasticky "spacer" between the metal and the parchment in non-uniform locations.

2 or 3 of the pans are mostly destroyed - badly discolored across 1/2 the pan....not sure how the Silpats interracted with it. That one was the "white" border Matfer branded Silpats vs. the orange banded ones.

After this, I'm not sure I'd ever touch a Silpat ever again.


EDIT: Also, back on a previous topic, Webstaurantstore drives me crazy with their shipping pricing. I have a cart loaded up - shipping is $19. I add a pack of yeast, shipping jumps to $31. I add two different yeasts, shipping goes to $54. I remove the yeasts, and add a 10# box of dough conditioner, shipping goes to $60.41. Shipping jumped over $40 to add 1 10lb box. I clear my cart and add ONLY the dough conditioner. Shipping is $16.95.

One time a year ago, I saw my shipping price go down when I added one heavy product. They really need a better system. Great store, great prices, and if you can game the shipping you can get great deals, but it's so much overwhelming effort it's like being a day trader to figure out what items to add to which cart to get the best price. And sometimes it makes no sense. Add a pipe cleaner, pay $15 more. Add a case of olive oil, shipping drops $4.

Small scale home baking in doughs I use milk or light cream and water.
Full fat powdered hi heat powder is expensive but it was nice to use.

!/2 sheetpans are cheap, you could try an angle grinder with a steel brush wheel or oven cleaner.
Blow torch and scraper.

Shipping might be coming from different locales, I do ok on amazon but they don't have specialty stuff.