Apple Pie falls apart when sliced

[HotStrawberry]

I'm trying to master the art of pies, but I'm hitting a road block. My recipe is good, tastes outstanding, my crust, baking time, etc are all good. I pre-cook my apples, drain the liquid and thicken it with corn starch and I let the apples and liquid cool completely. I fill my crust, pour over the thickened juices and bake until the juices bubble and then I cool the baked pie completely. But, when I try to cut a slice, it just falls apart. The apples spill all over the place and the crust breaks apart into pieces on top and is soggy on the bottom. I use an egg wash before filling, but it doesn't help. Am I using too much of the thickened juices? Should I use a few tablespoons only or eliminate it altogether? It's just that's where all the sugar is because I sprinkle it over the cooking apples and it makes a tasty sauce in the bottom of the skillet. I use a combo of Granny Smith and Honeycrisp, and a Pyrex baking dish. Any advice is welcome. Thanks!!!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Pie crust baker’s percentages

• 100% Flour 10% - 10.5% protein is ideal
• 1.25% baking powder optional
• 70% unsalted butter 83% butter fat is ideal
• 30% ice water
• 1.5% Diamond brand Kosher salt

Dissolve the salt in the water. Chill the water.



==========



Double Crust

• 320g flour (2 1/4c dip & level)
• 4g baking powder (optional)
• 224g butter
• 1 tsp salt
• 90g (96ml) ice water 28%-30%

Freeze 15 mins before baking

Egg wash crust for shine before baking



400°F on 2nd lowest rack first 15 mins

375°F on 2nd lowest rack remainder of baking.

I am not a fan of the Pyrex glass baking dish. I prefer metal. The reason is I heat a sheet pan in the oven, then place the pie on the sheet pan. You risk shattering a glass baking dish by placing it on a hot sheet pan.


I use a rough puff pastry method for mixing pie dough. It’s extremely fast and you get a very flaky crust. The differences just add all the water to the bowl when making pie dough. And don’t make all the turns. Once the dough comes together and you fold in thirds, divide it into two, wrap it and chill it, preferably overnight.

===================

Cornstarch is really an inferior thickener. Tapioca starch is much better. Stella Parks came up with an outstanding formula for thickening with tapioca starch.

Thickener: tapioca starch

High water content fruit
(e.g., blueberries, cherries)

• Weight of fruit
• 25% – 30% sugar
• 5% - 6% tapioca starch

High pectin fruit
(e.g., apples, peaches)

• Weight of fruit
• 12% - 15% sugar
• 2% - 2.5% tapioca starch

Cross-section of pie crust using the rough pastry method

hand pie cross-section

pie my sister baked after I taught her these baker’s percentages for the crust, the rough puff pastry method, and how to use the tapioca starch for thickener.

 

[HotStrawberry]

Pie crust baker’s percentages

• 100% Flour 10% - 10.5% protein is ideal
• 1.25% baking powder optional
• 70% unsalted butter 83% butter fat is ideal
• 30% ice water
• 1.5% Diamond brand Kosher salt

Dissolve the salt in the water. Chill the water.



==========



Double Crust

• 320g flour (2 1/4c dip & level)
• 4g baking powder (optional)
• 224g butter
• 1 tsp salt
• 90g (96ml) ice water 28%-30%

Freeze 15 mins before baking

Egg wash crust for shine before baking



400°F on 2nd lowest rack first 15 mins

375°F on 2nd lowest rack remainder of baking.

I am not a fan of the Pyrex glass baking dish. I prefer metal. The reason is I heat a sheet pan in the oven, then place the pie on the sheet pan. You risk shattering a glass baking dish by placing it on a hot sheet pan.


I use a rough puff pastry method for mixing pie dough. It’s extremely fast and you get a very flaky crust. The differences just add all the water to the bowl when making pie dough. And don’t make all the turns. Once the dough comes together and you fold in thirds, divide it into two, wrap it and chill it, preferably overnight.

===================

Cornstarch is really an inferior thickener. Tapioca starch is much better. Stella Parks came up with an outstanding formula for thickening with tapioca starch.

Thickener: tapioca starch

High water content fruit
(e.g., blueberries, cherries)

• Weight of fruit
• 25% – 30% sugar
• 5% - 6% tapioca starch

High pectin fruit
(e.g., apples, peaches)

• Weight of fruit
• 12% - 15% sugar
• 2% - 2.5% tapioca starch

Cross-section of pie crust using the rough pastry method
View attachment 4172

hand pie cross-section
View attachment 4171

pie my sister baked after I taught her these baker’s percentages for the crust, the rough puff pastry method, and how to use the tapioca starch for thickener.
View attachment 4174

Thank you for all the suggestions. I'm trying a couple of things today, one being par-baking the bottom crust. That seems to be one of the missing elements. My crust before was sticking, but these are not, so yay! I have two recipes going, the one I have been using with the corn starch thickener. I used only half the thickened juices that I strained off (this may not be enough to keep it juicy, but we'll see). The second receipe, I used tapioca flour, and rather than mix it all together on the stove, I cooked the apples for about 5 minutes, drained them, cooled them, then mixed in the dry ingredients and let it sit to thicken. First pie just came out of the oven, second is baking. Tomorrow, I will slice and compare and hopefully have better luck.

 

[HotStrawberry]

Just going on appearance, so far so good with Pie #1 Slightly over browned

 

[HotStrawberry]

And #2

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I think that’s a beautiful pie. About 20 minutes, cover the pie with a piece of light weight aluminum foil. That will keep the crust from over browning.

I forgot to mention that do you want to look for bubbling of the filling in the CENTER of the pie for most fillings. For Apple since you are pre-cooking the filling you have to go by trial and error depending on the type of apples you are using. Apple can be very persnickety. Sweet apples will bake down too mush.

But that is really a very pretty pie.

 

[HotStrawberry]

I think that’s a beautiful pie. About 20 minutes, cover the pie with a piece of light weight aluminum foil. That will keep the crust from over browning.

I forgot to mention that do you want to look for bubbling of the filling in the CENTER of the pie for most fillings. For Apple since you are pre-cooking the filling you have to go by trial and error depending on the type of apples you are using. Apple can be very persnickety. Sweet apples will bake down too mush.

But that is really a very pretty pie.

Thank you, I definitely wait for the bubbing. I had foil around the edge for the first 35 minutes baking, then removed it and let it bake uncovered for about 15 minutes (this is at 425). Then I covered it and baked for another 15. I need to play around with that aspect. I'm just hoping for a juicy yet in-tact filling. I did get a little bit of filling collapse on one quadrant, so that's another issue, the dreaded gap.....

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you, I definitely wait for the bubbing. I had foil around the edge for the first 35 minutes baking, then removed it and let it bake uncovered for about 15 minutes (this is at 425). Then I covered it and baked for another 15. I need to play around with that aspect. I'm just hoping for a juicy yet in-tact filling. I did get a little bit of filling collapse on one quadrant, so that's another issue, the dreaded gap.....

The gap is a problem with aople. I’ve tried everything under the sun: pre cooking and adding hot; pre-cooking and cooling; adding raw; using just tart apples; sous vide; thick slices; thin slices; lacerating the apple; praying over my pie.

It’s hit or miss. I have not figured out a full proof method that works every time. If there’s one out there I just don’t know what it is.

I don’t have the issue when I make apple hand pies. And I never cook the filling when I make him pies. Just put the fruit in raw. So I am sure it has to do with the time of cooking and temperature. A hand pie is only cooked for a short period of time compared to a full size pie. But I don’t know how to get around the cooking time on a full-size pie especially a deep dish.

 

[HotStrawberry]

The gap is a problem with aople. I’ve tried everything under the sun: pre cooking and adding hot; pre-cooking and cooling; adding raw; using just tart apples; sous vide; thick slices; thin slices; lacerating the apple; praying over my pie.

It’s hit or miss. I have not figured out a full proof method that works every time. If there’s one out there I just don’t know what it is.

I don’t have the issue when I make apple hand pies. And I never cook the filling when I make him pies. Just put the fruit in raw. So I am sure it has to do with the time of cooking and temperature. A hand pie is only cooked for a short period of time compared to a full size pie. But I don’t know how to get around the cooking time on a full-size pie especially a deep dish.

I can live with the gap, it wasn't the entire pie so not a big deal. My first pie, using my usual method with corn starch, came out better. The apples stayed intact when slicing, but when I put it on a plate, total collapse. I think my baking dish is too big for my crust, so I'm having to roll it too thin and it's just not sturdy enough to hold up. I'm going to try a smaller, metal pan this weekend and see what happens. I know it still tastes good and is edible, but you know, gotta have the aesthetic I'd like the slice to stay intact on the plate. What brand/type metal pans do you use? I looked up some on Amazon, but as usual, you get "GREAT! AWESOME! BEST PAN EVER!" right next to "Sucks, worst pan I've ever tried. Rusted, don't use".

 

[Sharzi]

I'm trying to master the art of pies, but I'm hitting a road block. My recipe is good, tastes outstanding, my crust, baking time, etc are all good. I pre-cook my apples, drain the liquid and thicken it with corn starch and I let the apples and liquid cool completely. I fill my crust, pour over the thickened juices and bake until the juices bubble and then I cool the baked pie completely. But, when I try to cut a slice, it just falls apart. The apples spill all over the place and the crust breaks apart into pieces on top and is soggy on the bottom. I use an egg wash before filling, but it doesn't help. Am I using too much of the thickened juices? Should I use a few tablespoons only or eliminate it altogether? It's just that's where all the sugar is because I sprinkle it over the cooking apples and it makes a tasty sauce in the bottom of the skillet. I use a combo of Granny Smith and Honeycrisp, and a Pyrex baking dish. Any advice is welcome. Thanks!!!

Pre-cooking the apples is the issue. I don't pre-cook my apples and the pies turn out perfect every time. In a bowl with my apples (I use 2 Fuji, 2 honeycrisp, 2 delicious, and 1 granny smith)....mix in sugar, cinnamon, a pinch of salt, flour, and sometimes a tbsp of maple syrup. I let that sit for a little bit, just until it starts to look wet, mix the apples one more time, then pour into a cold crust. I then dot with butter and put on my top crust, seal and cut little slits in it. If you'd like the recipe, I'd be happy to share it.

 

[HotStrawberry]

Pre-cooking the apples is the issue. I don't pre-cook my apples and the pies turn out perfect every time. In a bowl with my apples (I use 2 Fuji, 2 honeycrisp, 2 delicious, and 1 granny smith)....mix in sugar, cinnamon, a pinch of salt, flour, and sometimes a tbsp of maple syrup. I let that sit for a little bit, just until it starts to look wet, mix the apples one more time, then pour into a cold crust. I then dot with butter and put on my top crust, seal and cut little slits in it. If you'd like the recipe, I'd be happy to share it.

Thank you so much for your advice. Unfortunately, when I first started out, I didn't pre-cook the apples and it was a soupy mess. So much liquid cooked out into the pie that it was ridiculous. Pre cooking seems to be working for me now. I think I have hit upon the right formula. I'm using tapioca flour for my thickener and it's working well. I'm still getting a gap under the crust some of the time, it's hit or miss, but the results are still delicious. But definitely share that recipe. I'm always open to new things.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I can live with the gap, it wasn't the entire pie so not a big deal. My first pie, using my usual method with corn starch, came out better. The apples stayed intact when slicing, but when I put it on a plate, total collapse. I think my baking dish is too big for my crust, so I'm having to roll it too thin and it's just not sturdy enough to hold up. I'm going to try a smaller, metal pan this weekend and see what happens. I know it still tastes good and is edible, but you know, gotta have the aesthetic I'd like the slice to stay intact on the plate. What brand/type metal pans do you use? I looked up some on Amazon, but as usual, you get "GREAT! AWESOME! BEST PAN EVER!" right next to "Sucks, worst pan I've ever tried. Rusted, don't use".
View attachment 4183

To adjust your dough amount use either 15g or 18g flour per inch of pie plate. Add 2” to the diameter to account for the sides. That way you have plenty enough though and you don’t have to worry about rolling it too thin. If you use a deep dish, you might go as high as 20g flour per inch.





9” + 2” = 11” for single 9”

11” x 2 = 22” for double crust



15g x 22 = 330g flour


18g x 22 = 396g flour



Then use the ratios


Flour 100%
Butter 70%
Water 30%
Salt 1.5%


The metal tins I use are either Chicago Metallic or no name brand from the restaurant supply store. I like metal because the metal heats up fast and heat transfer gives a nice crust on the bottom. Ceramic and glass take too long to heat up so the pie often ends up with a soggy bottom.

 

[Sharzi]

Thank you so much for your advice. Unfortunately, when I first started out, I didn't pre-cook the apples and it was a soupy mess. So much liquid cooked out into the pie that it was ridiculous. Pre cooking seems to be working for me now. I think I have hit upon the right formula. I'm using tapioca flour for my thickener and it's working well. I'm still getting a gap under the crust some of the time, it's hit or miss, but the results are still delicious. But definitely share that recipe. I'm always open to new things.

SHARZI'S SINFULLY CINNAMON APPLE PIE
.
Oh my mother's apple pies!! YUM! Though she uses a more tart apple, I tend more toward the sweet. I also added a couple ingredients to make this really cinnamon sinful!
.
4 Crispin apples and 4 Delicious apples or 2 Fuji, 2 honeycrisp, 2 delicious, and 1 granny smith
1 cup granulated sugar
1 Tbsp pancake syrup
1 1/2 tsp cinnamon
1/4 tsp nutmeg
3 Tbsp flour
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 stick butter - cold
-
2 crusts - one for bottom and one for the top.
.
*** If you want even more cinnamon flavor, add about 1/4 cup of red cinnamon candies (that you get in the baking aisle), and omit the pancake syrup.
.
Peel, core and slice apples thin. Add sugar, syrup (or candies), cinnamon, nutmeg, flour, salt. Stir until well coated.
.
Pour apple slices into unbaked crust. Cut butter into thin slices and arrange around the top of the apples. Cover pie with top crust, seal edges, and then I take a knife and make little slices as a guide for 8 slices.

.
Bake 475 degrees for 13 minutes or until crust is just beginning to look golden. Lower oven temp to 350 degrees and bake 40-45 more minutes - checking to be sure crust won't over-brown. This keeps the edges from burning. Or you can wrap foil just around the edges.
.
Remove from oven and cool on racks. As the pie cools, the 'sauce' inside will thicken.
.

 

[HotStrawberry]

To adjust your dough amount use either 15g or 18g flour per inch of pie plate. Add 2” to the diameter to account for the sides. That way you have plenty enough though and you don’t have to worry about rolling it too thin. If you use a deep dish, you might go as high as 20g flour per inch.





9” + 2” = 11” for single 9”

11” x 2 = 22” for double crust



15g x 22 = 330g flour


18g x 22 = 396g flour



Then use the ratios


Flour 100%
Butter 70%
Water 30%
Salt 1.5%


The metal tins I use are either Chicago Metallic or no name brand from the restaurant supply store. I like metal because the metal heats up fast and heat transfer gives a nice crust on the bottom. Ceramic and glass take too long to heat up so the pie often ends up with a soggy bottom.

And I've done it!!!! The lattice top seems to be one aspect that I needed to incorporate. I love a full top crust, but the gap was so hit or miss. My last effort had almost a two inch gap! This seems to have solved that issue and apparently all the others. Maybe I just needed more ventilation so it could thicken and set. Making a second one to see if I can re-create the results. This better not be a fluke!!!! Thank you for all your help and suggestions. I did this one in one of those disposable aluminum ones from the supermarket.

 

[HotStrawberry]

SHARZI'S SINFULLY CINNAMON APPLE PIE
.
Oh my mother's apple pies!! YUM! Though she uses a more tart apple, I tend more toward the sweet. I also added a couple ingredients to make this really cinnamon sinful!
.
4 Crispin apples and 4 Delicious apples or 2 Fuji, 2 honeycrisp, 2 delicious, and 1 granny smith
1 cup granulated sugar
1 Tbsp pancake syrup
1 1/2 tsp cinnamon
1/4 tsp nutmeg
3 Tbsp flour
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 stick butter - cold
-
2 crusts - one for bottom and one for the top.
.
*** If you want even more cinnamon flavor, add about 1/4 cup of red cinnamon candies (that you get in the baking aisle), and omit the pancake syrup.
.
Peel, core and slice apples thin. Add sugar, syrup (or candies), cinnamon, nutmeg, flour, salt. Stir until well coated.
.
Pour apple slices into unbaked crust. Cut butter into thin slices and arrange around the top of the apples. Cover pie with top crust, seal edges, and then I take a knife and make little slices as a guide for 8 slices.

.
Bake 475 degrees for 13 minutes or until crust is just beginning to look golden. Lower oven temp to 350 degrees and bake 40-45 more minutes - checking to be sure crust won't over-brown. This keeps the edges from burning. Or you can wrap foil just around the edges.
.
Remove from oven and cool on racks. As the pie cools, the 'sauce' inside will thicken.
.

Thank you muchly. I also like to use Granny Smith and Honeycrisp, but will probably have to adjust when the HC aren't in season.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

And I've done it!!!! The lattice top seems to be one aspect that I needed to incorporate. I love a full top crust, but the gap was so hit or miss. My last effort had almost a two inch gap! This seems to have solved that issue and apparently all the others. Maybe I just needed more ventilation so it could thicken and set. Making a second one to see if I can re-create the results. This better not be a fluke!!!! Thank you for all your help and suggestions. I did this one in one of those disposable aluminum ones from the supermarket.View attachment 4195View attachment 4196View attachment 4197

Oh that’s a beautiful pie. I love the lattice top. That’s usually what I make when I bake a whole pie. Pie is addictive. Once you start with pie you find yourself going from fruit to savory. then it’s hand pies. Mini pies. Pies in mason jar lids. Pies in muffin tins. Square pies. Triangular pies. Artistic top pies. You can’t stop making pies.

You are very welcome for the help. I always enjoy giving you tips because you’re so enthusiastic.

 

[HotStrawberry]

Oh that’s a beautiful pie. I love the lattice top. That’s usually what I make when I bake a whole pie. Pie is addictive. Once you start with pie you find yourself going from fruit to savory. then it’s hand pies. Mini pies. Pies in mason jar lids. Pies in muffin tins. Square pies. Triangular pies. Artistic top pies. You can’t stop making pies.

You are very welcome for the help. I always enjoy giving you tips because you’re so enthusiastic.

I made some hand pies over the weekend with some leftover filling and dough. They were good, but I need to slice the apples much smaller than what I did for this pie. I'm going to attempt a peach pie next. I've just been craving apple and peach pie ala mode lately.