My Cheese Puffs came out flat. No puff. The recipe called for 1 cup water, 1 bar butter, half teaspoon salt, 4 eggs, 1 cup flour, then cheese and herb. I heated the batter and stirred. It did not thicken like it did in the pictures. Added 3 TBS flour, but that didn't help much. Flat puffs are not cute. Anyone know what I did wrong?
Cheese Puffs
- Thread starter DonnaJ
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
The panade (dough of liquid, butter, flour and salt) must be cooked to 165°F - 175°F (74 to 79°C) on stovetop.
Use a flour with approximately 10.5% protein. Flour with low protein will not develop enough gluten; will not absorb the liquid.
Preferably use unsalted butter with 83% butterfat
This explains the method of cooking
www.seriouseats.com
Use a flour with approximately 10.5% protein. Flour with low protein will not develop enough gluten; will not absorb the liquid.
Preferably use unsalted butter with 83% butterfat
This explains the method of cooking
Gougères (Choux Pastry Cheese Puffs) Recipe
Gougères are cheesy puffs made from French choux pastry. The choux base is quick and easy to whip up, and the gougères bake up golden and crisp.
Thank you, that article was really helpful. I have sent away for a rapid read thermometer. I most likely didn't get the flour mixture hot enough. Once that comes, I will give it another try and let you know how the puffs turn out.
As for the special flour and butter, I don't think companies are required to list the protein and fat content so most don't. At least I have never found them on a package. I have access to regular white flour and a number of brands of European butters, so I think I am OK there. Hopefully it's the process where I failed and that should be taken care of with the thermometer. Thanks!
As for the special flour and butter, I don't think companies are required to list the protein and fat content so most don't. At least I have never found them on a package. I have access to regular white flour and a number of brands of European butters, so I think I am OK there. Hopefully it's the process where I failed and that should be taken care of with the thermometer. Thanks!
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
What country are you located? I can give you some general information about flour if you are using flours from UK, France, Canada, or the US.
I am in Panama. The regularly available flour is milled here, but the wheat brought in from somewhere else and I don't know where. Most likely from the most reasonable seller as that's how most things from fuel, drugs and food are brought in. It has performed well for a number of years. The butters are President, Lurpak, Anchor and other brands I can't remember off hand. There are locally made butters, one was particularly good, but that has vanished from the cases. Overall, we have a very good selection of foods available, especially produce.
I ordered the ThermoWorks Pop Thermometer. My husband came home with a barbecue unit that didn't fit the need. I'll let you know how things turn out once it arrives, I think about two weeks.
Thank you for taking the time to offer up help. I really appreciate your dedication.
I ordered the ThermoWorks Pop Thermometer. My husband came home with a barbecue unit that didn't fit the need. I'll let you know how things turn out once it arrives, I think about two weeks.
Thank you for taking the time to offer up help. I really appreciate your dedication.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
Panama’s main sources for wheat flour imports are Aruba, France, and EU.
Aruba does not cultivate wheat; rather they are a production (milling) industry. The import raw goods, mill into a finished product, then sale (export). Aruba mills wheat flour, wheat gluten, malt, inulin (a natural form of “sugar” that is a fraction as sweet as sugar), and various root vegetables and cereal grains.
Aruba’s main sources for a wheat imports are US and Netherlands.
Netherlands has very low protein wheat. Wheat from US and France meet the standard of 11%.
Milling methods and wheat blends in the final flour effect the protein and ash content.
If you are using an “all purpose” flour, there’s a good chance it’s within the 10.0% - 11.0% protein content range. That level protein flour should be fine.
By your descriptions, I would guess wheat coming here would be from the US where lots of the imports come from as there are still strong ties between the countries. The bag says it's all purpose, and as it has done well with most everything else I have used it for, I don't think the flour is the problem. I think I can take credit for that.
I am totally impressed with your vast knowledge of wheat and its origins. We are lucky to have you on Baking Forum.
I am totally impressed with your vast knowledge of wheat and its origins. We are lucky to have you on Baking Forum.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
Trust me even the most Experienced bakers still blotch things. I was working on a cookie formula last month that was a total flop. On paper everything should’ve worked; but after baking the cookie didn't spread well and the raisins gave them a horrible taste.
You’re using good butter; i’m pretty certain your wheat flower is a good quality. So it’s just a matter of perfecting your technique. Pate a choux is an unique dough in that it is twice cooked.
Cooking the dough on the stovetop is designed to:
- Trigger gluten
- Flour has no gluten. There are two proteins, glutenin and gliadin that must bind with water in order for gluten to form. So until water and agitation happens, there is no gluten in flour.
- Trigger starch gelatinization
- Dough needs to be at least 140°F (60°C) minimum
- Dough should not exceed 194°F (90°C)
- Desired Dough Temperature (DDT) temperature 160°F (70°C)
- Adds moisture
- Required for gluten and starch gelatinization
- Required for mechanical leavening
- Evaporate some water
- Prepare dough to absorb egg
- Too much water in dough
- a) prevent the dough from absorbing the needed egg
- b) cause the shells to crack and/or collapse
- Develop gluten
- Mixing with paddle/wood spoon develops gluten
- Beating to cool develops gluten
- Beating in egg develops gluten
Your failed cookie recipe story made me smile. Thanks for sharing. I have dogs that happily eat any mistakes I make with smiles and wagging tails. Dogs always make me feel better when failure strikes.
It's interesting that there is needed moisture and also evaporation of moisture required. Sounds tricky. The thermometer will be a big help.
Do you think moving the batter to a stand mixer with paddle attachment would be better for beating it once it reached temperature? I did read a recipe that advised this. It would be lots easier than the wooden spoon thing. (I'm getting older and less energetic.)
It's interesting that there is needed moisture and also evaporation of moisture required. Sounds tricky. The thermometer will be a big help.
Do you think moving the batter to a stand mixer with paddle attachment would be better for beating it once it reached temperature? I did read a recipe that advised this. It would be lots easier than the wooden spoon thing. (I'm getting older and less energetic.)
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
Certainly the mixer is a godsend for convenience. And I use it.
But learning to make pate a choux by hand with a paddle is also key to advancing your skill and knowledge as a baker.
Pate a choux is about the feel of the dough. How much egg you add in any given batch will vary based on a number of factors: amount of moisture is left in the dough; age of the flour, as that effects it's absorption rate; relative humidity.
With many doughs, learning the look, feel and understand the dough is really important.
And it’s not just with doughs it’s with other aspects of baking. Pay attention to how the ingredients at each step develop: How does it look? What about the color and texture is changing?
How does it feel? Is it becoming lighter or heavier? Is it going from grainy to smooth? What is the texture you’re striving for? What is the temperature?
The process of mixing is chemistry. We mix in a certain order for a reason. So you need to pay attention to those chemical reactions in the mixing. The mixing is the first part of the chemical reaction.
keep in mind that temperature is like an ingredient. We add temperature in so many ways besides the oven. The temperature of ingredients; temperature through friction of mixing, whether it’s a mixer or by hand; temperature by placing the ingredients in the refrigerator or freezer; and temperature by placing the ingredients in the oven.
We constantly add temperature throughout the process. It’s really critical to monitor the temperature throughout the entire process because it really affects the chemical reactions of the ingredients.
The paddling does three things: it develops gluten; it removes temperature by cooling; and removes moisture by releasing steam. So the dough is going to change dramatically when it's paddled.
This is why learning to do it by hand is important.
I received the thermometer and gave Cheese Puffs another try. I tried to do everything the way you said. They did not puff up like in the photo where they were nicely ball shaped. Mine were more droopy balls. They tasted great, with nice crispy outers and soft tender inners. I put them in a sealed food container (a Lock & Lock box). Later when I took them out, they were soggy and very unappealing. They had become like little sponges and tasted about the same. It's amazing how quickly moisture can set in as they weren't out in the open air much more than the few minutes it took to transfer them to the box. They were still a little warm to the touch, maybe too warm. Maybe it's too humid here for things like that. We are in rainy season. I did do the half hour leave them in the oven thing after baking to dry them. I will give it another go, but think I will wait a bit. Then I will go over all your advice again. Do you think the humid climate here is a factor?
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
If they are soggy, then the formula has too much hydration for the level of protein in the flour.
Flour in every country is different. When using recipes that were not formulated with ingredients from your country, you have to experiment (made adjustments, until you find the ratios that work).
Flour protein levels, butter fat content, milk fat content, even water mineral content varies. And all of these factors effect the final product.
Start by reducing the liquid to flour ratio by 10%.
Also are you using an aged dry cheese as opposed to a higher water content cheese? And are you using a piercing the cheese puff at the end of baking to release the steam, then leave in off oven to dry out steam?
The round puff is still round and puffy even when weighed down and baked with a craquelin disc of flour, sugar, and butter. It’s a matter of getting the formula right as well as the cooking process.
OK, you have inspired me. I will give this another go as you make it sound easier while still being a challenge. I did not pierce the puffs before baking. As my dough was a bit thin, reducing the water should help. Do you think using milk would be better? The cheese I used was cheddar. Maybe I should try parmesan.
Thank you for taking the time to answer, you have been a really big help.
Thank you for taking the time to answer, you have been a really big help.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
Cheddar cheese should be OK. Traditionally gruyere or comté is used. My favorite is comté.
The ratio of flour to cheese should be about 125% - 130% at most of cheese. So multiply the weight of the flour by 1.25 - 1.30 to determine the weight of cheese.
Add 2/3 of the cheese into the dough; sprinkle the remaining 1/3 on top of puffs.
About just before the puff is done, pierce the side with a sharp knife to release steam. Then leave in off oven to
evaporate the steam.
Because of the cheese, which contains milk fat, it's best to stick with water for pate a choux used for gougères. Fat inhibits development. And it sounds like you have an issue with low protein flour (low gluten) to begin with; so adding additional fat is just going to weaken an already weak dough.
After researching a number of recipes, I made another batch. This recipe called for 6 ounces of butter. The dough was thicker. This is what turned out:
While they did not puff up, they do taste good and have a great crispy texture. At least right now. Time will tell if they turn into little sponges. I used the cheddar and dill. As they taste good, I will consider this a success, thanks to you.
It appears there are two images, one very large and one small. I don't know how to fix this and apologize for any rules I have broken. My computer skills are much worse than my Cheese Puff skills.
While they did not puff up, they do taste good and have a great crispy texture. At least right now. Time will tell if they turn into little sponges. I used the cheddar and dill. As they taste good, I will consider this a success, thanks to you.
It appears there are two images, one very large and one small. I don't know how to fix this and apologize for any rules I have broken. My computer skills are much worse than my Cheese Puff skills.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
I need to know exactly what you used.
Post the entire recipe with the instructions.
Also can you take a picture of the flour package? Maybe I can do some research on the flour.
My brother has business in Mexico, and he has friends who do Business in Panama. So I may be able to get some information on the flour.
You definitely have an issue with gluten development. I have some idea of what the problem is, but I need to see your recipe and the instructions that you followed.
I read yesterday morning that GMO wheat has been found in Oregon. If it has been found in one place, you know it is in others. While the Federal government banned GMO for things consumed by humans, we know people eat many products made from corn and soybeans, the two approved crops, so we are already exposed to any dangers. While researchers say there is no danger now from these things, this hasn't been done long enough to tell. Do you think GMO wheat could affect things like Cheese Puffs not rising? This is the flour I'm using. It could very well be bought in the US as GMO wheat for export was just fine to do.
Sorry, I can't add the photo of the other side and I don't know why. Not being able to see clearly what's on the screen might be the problem.
The recipe I used:
3/4 bar butter
1 cup water
1/2 teas, salt
1 cup flour
4 eggs
1-1/2 cups shredded cheddar
1 TBS dill
Combine butter, water and salt and heat, stirring constantly until dough forms a ball pulling away from the sides. Temperature should read 165-175. Move dough to mixer bowl and add eggs, one at a time on low speed until mixture is silky and bowl is cool. Add cheese and dill. Drop on a silicone lined sheet and bake 25 minutes at 400. Pierce each with a skewer and leave in oven 30 minutes.
I reheated some of the Puffs from the day before. They got nice and crunchy and we really liked them. (I think I can feel you cringing.) While I may not be able to get them to be and stay crispy outside and soft inside, what turned out was OK.
The recipe I used:
3/4 bar butter
1 cup water
1/2 teas, salt
1 cup flour
4 eggs
1-1/2 cups shredded cheddar
1 TBS dill
Combine butter, water and salt and heat, stirring constantly until dough forms a ball pulling away from the sides. Temperature should read 165-175. Move dough to mixer bowl and add eggs, one at a time on low speed until mixture is silky and bowl is cool. Add cheese and dill. Drop on a silicone lined sheet and bake 25 minutes at 400. Pierce each with a skewer and leave in oven 30 minutes.
I reheated some of the Puffs from the day before. They got nice and crunchy and we really liked them. (I think I can feel you cringing.) While I may not be able to get them to be and stay crispy outside and soft inside, what turned out was OK.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 4,067
- Reaction score
- 2,081
GMO wheat was discovered growing in one field in Oregon. Farmer who spotted it reported it to the government immediately.
Wheat must be tested for export. that is how GMO wheat in Canada was discovered and blocked from export to Japan.
Countries like Canada and the United States depend so heavily on export.
Countries that ban GMO require testing. Whenever there is a positive test for GMO not only is that shipment prohibited from leaving the country of origin, but all future exports are halted until the source of the GMO wheat is found and steps are taken to eradicated from the food chain.
In the case of the Canadian GMO, it was months before Canadian wheat could be exported into Asia.
Wheat farmers in the United States and Canada cannot afford to grow GMO wheat. The economic cost is so great it makes absolutely no Business sense to grow it.
That said I do not think GMO wheat, corn, soybeans, or other vegetables pose a danger.
humans have been selectively breeding plants for generations. The wheat you eat is so far removed from the ancient grain. it is a hybrid 100 times over.
Corn is actually invented by humans. Over 7000 years ago the people who inhabited what we call modern-day Mexico took a wild grass called teosinte and selectively bred it to eventually produce what we eat today as corn. orn never existed until humans created it.
GMO is selective breeding in the laboratory. People just get freaked out about it because happens in the laboratory.
All the wheat you eat has been selectively bred Over the centuries. Einkorn is one ancient grain that has not been selectively bred. It has 14 chromosomes. The wheat you eat probably has 42 chromosomes or more.
The ancient grain einkorn is delicious. But it doesn’t have any of the properties of modern wheat flour. It doesn’t rise well; it is very dense; it is very dark in color; it has a very strong distinct flavor so you cannot make pastry with it.
That is the reason wheat and other plants have been bred for certain characteristics over the centuries. Cooks and bakers demand certain flavors textures and performance. The market demands shelf life.
People claim there’s “not enough research” on GMO. In so far as food safety that’s simply not true. And there’s no indication that GMO foods are unsafe.
The real issue with GMO foods is the environmental impact and poverty. GMO seed is often used in Food programs in poor countries. These food programs replace native food plants with GMO seeds that are starchy and less nutritious. for instance in Africa food programs replace native food plants like cassava, pearl millet, sorghum, sweet potatoes with maize.
The GMO maize is more drought resistant, pest resistant, and yields more. But it is a high starch, low nutritional value plant food.
The farmers also don’t turn the land over, and they use chemical fertilizers, which contaminate groundwater, streams, and eventually make its way to the ocean.
I will analyze your recipe and get back to you.
Your issue of deflated puffs is actually quite common.
It’s just a matter of finding the right ratio of ingredients for the flour you are using.