KitchenAid Pro 600 struggling to mix bread

[googlieguy]

A bit of background: I'm new to using a mixer (about 9 months) but hardly new to baking bread (well over 30 years). Last year I caved in and decided to get a mixer, but I thought I'd go cheap to at least be sure it was useful (it was). I bought a "Deco Chef" for all of around $65. It worked very well but lasted only about six months. Worked one moment and then suddenly stopped working. But what's important to this question is that it never sounded or looked like it was struggling to mix bread dough.

So I decided to buy KitchenAid, albeit refurbished. It was bought from KA off their ebay channel, so there was nothing sketchy there.

The first batch went fine. But the second and third did not. During the second batch, the mixer would actually briefly stop during the mixing. i thought maybe I forgot what I was doing and didn't add enough water. So the next batch I paid very close attention to what I was doing. And even added maybe an extra 1/4 cup or so of water. It struggled again, although didn't do any of the brief stopping.

KitchenAid replaced it without question and just now I've mixed a batch with it. And it is struggling again!!

The recipe is the same recipe I was using with the cheaper mixer and with both KA mixers. It is from King Arthur's new baking book, the basic bread. The only thing I've done was up the amounts 4/3. So I'm using about 7 1/2 cups flour to 2 1/2 to 3 cups water.

I have videos but it seems that I am not allowed to post them. I would love some other perspectives about this before I call KitchenAid again.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Wrong type of mixer for the task.

When considering a mixer, you have to select based on the type of doughs you will mix most often.

There are two types of mixers: planetary and spiral. They are completely different style of mixers, and they’re designed for completely different types of doughs.

A planetary mixer has a single motor and stationary bowl. The single motor rotates the mixer head in one directions above the mixer bowl. The mixer arm is moved with a gear.

Planetary mixers are suited for pastry applications: cake and cupcake batters; whipping meringues; mixing buttercreams; beating pate a choux. Since it uses force (torque), resistance from heavy doughs like cookie, brioche, and bread not only generate a lot of friction heat in the doughs, but over time damage and strip the gear in the motor.

The motor is hesitating because it doesn't have enough torque to push against the weight of the dough.


A planetary mixer is not the best choice if you frequently and primarily make heavy yeast dough. Planetary mixers are not designed for yeast doughs as the bowl is stationary with just the mixer head rotating. The dough wraps around the dough hook. The mixer head then drags the dough against the inside of the bowl.

Dragging dough against the inside of the bowl does not knead the dough. The drag causes friction heat. The friction heat raises the dough temperature, knocking it out of Desired Dough Temperature (DDT), and damages the yeast. And for most KitchenAids, repeated mixing of heavy doughs damages the gear.

A spiral mixer rotates both the bowl and spiral arm. With both moving, it reduces drag, so less heat is generated. The chain pulley system doesn’t get stripped like the gear on the planetary mixers. A good spiral mixer also has a center post to keep the dough from climbing up the spiral arm.

Unfortunately, good home spiral mixers are not made in the US. They are expensive and only sold through retailers that specialize in high-end appliances.

examples of spiral mixers

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Example of how a spiral mixer kneads dough

 

[googlieguy]

I have read at least four of your repeated tirades about this type of mixer. That isn't the sort of help I am seeking. And if you had actually read my post, you would have learned that a cheaper mixer than the KitchenAid mixed bread dough without any struggle. The question is about this mixer, not planetary mixers in general. I am not here to get into that sort of debate.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I have read at least four of your repeated tirades about this type of mixer. That isn't the sort of help I am seeking. And if you had actually read my post, you would have learned that a cheaper mixer than the KitchenAid mixed bread dough without any struggle. The question is about this mixer, not planetary mixers in general. I am not here to get into that sort of debate.

it’s not a tirade, it’s a fact. Bakeries specializing in bread don’t use planetary mixers because they are the wrong mixer for the task.

Your anger is a reflection of the fact that you didn’t research the appropriate mixer for your needs.

The reason you have a refurbished kitchenaid is because others returned it for failing to mix heavy dough. The problem is inherent in the mixer design. Your anger at me for explaining the facts won’t change the performance of the mixer.

There’s nothing wrong with the 600. I own one. I own another kitchenaid tilt head mixer that is more than 20 yrs old. Never had a problem with either mixer because I use them for the appropriate tasks. No kitchenaid mixer will ever mix heavy dough. Go to any bread forum and read about how even the kitchenaid pro series fails miserably for bread.

BTW, if you don’t want feedback, don’t ask for it.

 

[googlieguy]

Look. I'm not here to argue about what I want or don't want. But you obviously have a lot of time on your hands to lecture people in this forum about what sort of mixers they should use. It didn't take me very long to figure that out. Once I did, I expected you to reply just as you did because all your posts are almost verbatim! I did not come here for that. I just spent $250 of hard earned money for something that clearly is advertised to make bread, like ALL similar mixers are.

If it is really important to you that you change the way these are marketed, go talk to KitchenAid.
Now I'm going to see how I can block you.

Please. If anyone else has a similar experience with these mixers, I want to know. This is not about whether they can mix bread dough. They can. I'm just trying to figure out whether I'm getting faulty ones.

 

[retired baker]

upload your video to youtube and then just post a link.

I use a kitchen aid, its easy to overload them and you have to consider what sort of bread you're making.
I just weighed 7 1/2 cups of flour, its 2lbs+ . for the amount of water you posted its too firm, needs hydrating , more water.
It will moan as its mixing, you have to pay attention to that, its telling you you're killing it.

You can make a soft dough , such as milk bread, but anything with body will burn up the mixer.
I make 2lbs flour bread dough often but its milk bread and I make certain the dough is very soft.

" So I'm using about 7 1/2 cups flour to 2 1/2 to 3 cups water."

for 2 lbs flour I would start at 3 cups of liquid and add more liquid if needed.
If the mixer is moaning on slow speed you need more liquid.
I don't care what a recipe says, a moaning machine doesn't lie.

 

[googlieguy]

Yeah, that's what I've been beginning to think. Maybe King Arthur has this recipe for hand kneading in mind. When I first came across the recipe, I did wonder why it was using so little water. I found a reddit thread about this and someone said they do 70% hydration but that seems too wet in the other direction. The other thing a couple people said was to keep it at the lowest speed, not even at 2. I'll try that too.

I'm definitely going to try starting with 3 cups as you suggest and add more if I think it can take it. Or maybe even add a little more oil.

It doesn't explain why I was having better luck with the cheaper mixer though. But then maybe that's why it burnt out. It worked without showing any struggle until the next moment it when kaput.


I posted it on YouTube, but it's really lousy resolution. I shot it on the spur of the moment with my flip phone! But you can hear the struggling too.

Thanks for your input.

 

[retired baker]

Yeah, that's what I've been beginning to think. Maybe King Arthur has this recipe for hand kneading in mind. When I first came across the recipe, I did wonder why it was using so little water. I found a reddit thread about this and someone said they do 70% hydration but that seems too wet in the other direction. The other thing a couple people said was to keep it at the lowest speed, not even at 2. I'll try that too.

I'm definitely going to try starting with 3 cups as you suggest and add more if I think it can take it. Or maybe even add a little more oil.

It doesn't explain why I was having better luck with the cheaper mixer though. But then maybe that's why it burnt out. It worked without showing any struggle until the next moment it when kaput.


I posted it on YouTube, but it's really lousy resolution. I shot it on the spur of the moment with my flip phone! But you can hear the struggling too.

Thanks for your input.

That dough is not even close to a dough suitable for a mixer. Its not even bread , is the recipe for bagels?
I'd take a wild guess and assume its lacking at least 1/2 cup of water....maybe a lot more.

 

[googlieguy]

No, it's what they are calling "Basic Bread" from their new baking book. The original recipe is for 5 1/2 to 5 3/4 flour to 2 cups water. I raised everything by a third. Their bagel recipe in the same book calls for 4 1/4 flour to 1 1/4 cups flour.

I'm going to do another batch in about a week. Keep following this thread. I'll post the results.

Thanks again.

 

[Linus]

Yeah, that's what I've been beginning to think. Maybe King Arthur has this recipe for hand kneading in mind. When I first came across the recipe, I did wonder why it was using so little water. I found a reddit thread about this and someone said they do 70% hydration but that seems too wet in the other direction. The other thing a couple people said was to keep it at the lowest speed, not even at 2. I'll try that too.

I'm definitely going to try starting with 3 cups as you suggest and add more if I think it can take it. Or maybe even add a little more oil.

It doesn't explain why I was having better luck with the cheaper mixer though. But then maybe that's why it burnt out. It worked without showing any struggle until the next moment it when kaput.


I posted it on YouTube, but it's really lousy resolution. I shot it on the spur of the moment with my flip phone! But you can hear the struggling too.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Linus]

View attachment 4784View attachment 4785

This vid of the KA mixer that you posted sounds horrible!! I've been reading the last few posts & my input is that I had two KA mixers for the last 28 or so years & they worked flawlessly until they gave up the ghost. I now have the Nutrimill Artiste & the Globe sp08 mixer. They work very nice!! I thought about buying another KA mixer, but since Whirlpool took over the division from Hobart, the machines had started being made with inferior quality & consumers had started complaining furiously about about them. That they break down prematurely They are NOT made the way they were made years ago!! That was a turnoff & had made me shy away from them. These last 2 mixers are like a dream come true!!

 

[googlieguy]

Sigh. I'm locked in at this point Linus. I did look around but most that I was finding were way too much money to justify spending. I did get interested in another mixer that mixes from the bottom like yours does. I'm forgetting the brand at the moment. But again, was too much $$$. I admit I went with the reputation KitchenAid has (or, has had). We'll see what we'll see.

I should add that I've used this mixer just to mix up a batch of (very wet) quick bread and it did fine. So it doesn't always sound like that! Maybe I should stick to quick bread.

 

[retired baker]

I used your recipe,
7 cups high gluten flour x 2 3/4 cups liquid ( I used milk).
I added a very small amount of water, maybe 4 tbsp to adjust the dough to suit me but it was fine without the extra water.

You can see in the video my dough is day and night different, its soft , supple and develops very quickly.
I ran it on speeds 3 and 4 just for demonstration, the mixer has no problem. The dough is not wet or sticky.

So its obvious you mismeasured by a large margin.
Theres nothing wrong with these machines, its you guys.

 

[retired baker]

took approx 3 hours from start to finish.

 

[googlieguy]

Well, it may be obvious to you, but I've run the recipe through the machine three times. THREE TIMES! And as I said, the first time went fine. But the second didn't, so of course I thought I mismeasured. And the next time I went very slowly and paid very close attention. And the time after that too. I can be stupid sometimes, but not on a regular basis.

I don't know. Maybe it's the extra 1/2 cup flour. I said I use 7 1/2. And maybe its the 2 1/2 cups liquid not three. Obviously you are hyrdrating the dough more than I have done. So you're not at all making a fair comparison.

Other than that, I appreciate you went to the trouble. You're confirming that I need to add more water than the recipe calls for.

 

[retired baker]

Well, it may be obvious to you, but I've run the recipe through the machine three times. THREE TIMES! And as I said, the first time went fine. But the second didn't, so of course I thought I mismeasured. And the next time I went very slowly and paid very close attention. And the time after that too. I can be stupid sometimes, but not on a regular basis.

I don't know. Maybe it's the extra 1/2 cup flour. I said I use 7 1/2. And maybe its the 2 1/2 cups liquid not three. Obviously you are hyrdrating the dough more than I have done. So you're not at all making a fair comparison.

Other than that, I appreciate you went to the trouble. You're confirming that I need to add more water than the recipe calls for.

you're kinda missing the point, the important take away is to recognize a dough that is so far out of suitable range it should not be mixed, turn the machine off and correct it or better... just ditch it.

Very often if a dough is that hard theres no way back, it has already burned the yeast up from friction,
its not worth trying to save $2 worth of flour at the expense of a new machine.

 

[googlieguy]

No. The point is that the recipe did not call for enough water.

This thread is now closed as far as I'm concerned. I had no idea such a simple question would cause so much controversy.

 

[SHA]

you're kinda missing the point, the important take away is to recognize a dough that is so far out of suitable range it should not be mixed, turn the machine off and correct it or better... just ditch it.

Very often if a dough is that hard theres no way back, it has already burned the yeast up from friction,
its not worth trying to save $2 worth of flour at the expense of a new machine.

I don't have a bagel formula in front of me but do bagels tend to be low hydration making it not doable on a KA mixer ? What would be a minimum hydration for using KA ?

 

[retired baker]

No. The point is that the recipe did not call for enough water.

This thread is now closed as far as I'm concerned. I had no idea such a simple question would cause so much controversy.

It doesn't matter what the recipe calls for, you will not run a kitchenaid like that for long.

 

[retired baker]

I don't have a bagel formula in front of me but do bagels tend to be low hydration making it not doable on a KA mixer ? What would be a minimum hydration for using KA ?

real authentic bagels can't be mixed in anything but specialized mixers, my brother ran a bagel start up in Boston, the 60 quart Hobart couldn't handle the dough. They bought a spiral mixer, in the end he thought it would have made more sense to buy frozen bagels and toast them in the oven before displaying.

You'll find a few recipes on youtube for the small mixers, they're just bagel shaped buns.
I just buy sara lee soft bagels and toast them. Same thing.

Heres how to kill a kitchenaid.