What are your incremental baking improvements?

[Norcalbaker59]

Ah, nearest we've been to Napa Valley is Muir Woods. Very lovely. We found Alameda very 'foodie' and felt really safe. Similar vibe to Astoria but maybe less 'trendy'. The poor food (and tourism) industries are just being devastated.

Tourism is dead right now. But it will bounce back with the lockdown is lifted. People desperately need to get outside. Hopefully by spring enough vaccine will have been distributed that we will be back to some sense of normal. Right now all the intensive care beds are filled up in our county, and over 60% of all available beds are filled. The surge of infections from Christmas is just now hitting the hospitals; I fear all the beds will be filled in the next week or so.

The wonderful thing about Europe is the countries are so close together, it makes going on holiday is so much more exciting. As soon as things get back to some kind of normal, I am going to book myself a holiday. The isolation is killing me.

 

[Emmie]

We've already booked to go to NYC in December and can just cancel if we have to. Husband is a big Cowboys fan (I know, I know) and always goes to their Thanksgiving game. But our friends have just cancelled their wedding in Italy that we were meant to be going to in May as we don't think it will be possible by then. The UK has the highest death rate per capita in the world - it's really not good. But, yes, things will improve.

 

[Emmie]

Another incremental improvement with bread yesterday, or at least two realisations. 1) Baking bread in a tin is much easier for the inexperienced as you can get away with over-proofing slightly, as long as you don't try to slash the top. Free-form bread that's over-proofed just spreads everywhere. First pic is slightly over-proofed and I just used the knowledge I'd gained and judged not to slash and got away with it. 2) I've been pre-shaping my bread, resting it then doing the final shaping. That's not given me the best results with tin loaves - air pockets - so I'll only do one shaping going forward.

Second pic is of a nice sesame split tin yesterday.

I also need to get a proper bread loaf tin as I'm using a cake tin where the sides are not as high and don't provide as much support.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Another incremental improvement with bread yesterday, or at least two realisations. 1) Baking bread in a tin is much easier for the inexperienced as you can get away with over-proofing slightly, as long as you don't try to slash the top. Free-form bread that's over-proofed just spreads everywhere. First pic is slightly over-proofed and I just used the knowledge I'd gained and judged not to slash and got away with it. 2) I've been pre-shaping my bread, resting it then doing the final shaping. That's not given me the best results with tin loaves - air pockets - so I'll only do one shaping going forward.

View attachment 3556

Second pic is of a nice sesame split tin yesterday.

View attachment 3555

I also need to get a proper bread loaf tin as I'm using a cake tin where the sides are not as high and don't provide as much support.

Your work is really coming along well. The sesame loaf looks really beautiful! Have you checked out Bake with Jack’s videos and blog? His videos on kneading and shaping are very good. Especially helpful is teaching bakers how to knead the proper way without flour. And teaching how to shape. And since he is based in the UK, the flours he uses are local.

 

[Emmie]

I have watched a few of his videos, yes - there are lots to get through though! His voice is really annoying, bless him. He has a Home Counties accent, which is similar to where we are. But I think it's his emphasis really - he's just so damn enthusiastic and perky.

I don't use anything to knead - used to use flour, then oil, then discovered that as long as I kept the dough moving for the first two minutes, lifting it ever so slightly off the work surface between each knead, then it came together enough for me to knead as normal after that. I'm visually-impaired and whilst my sight is fortunately good enough to see what I'm doing, texture and smell are important too. So after two minutes kneading, the texture of dough changes markedly for me. And at about 8 minutes, it starts to smell 'bready' so I know it's nearly done. It's a really helpful way of doing things, like knowing the sound of a cake when it's cooked is very different to when it's still got a bit of baking to go.

I've actually been following Jack's approach to pre-shaping and shaping, but it hasn't worked as well for me with loaf tins. I use instant yeast, which he doesn't (other yeast is difficult for me to get at the moment) so I'm reluctant to leave it too long after pre-shaping in case it loses its 'oomph'. I haven't seen anything yet where he actually says what flour he uses but I've seen an off-cut of one of his packets when he's dusting flour and it's plain white. Both of our main bread flour brands have coloured packets so I'm guessing it might be a brand called Dove's Farm or more likely Wessex Mills, which is the brand I normally get from our greengrocer as it's not available in stores. But he can't get hold of it at the moment so I'm back to supermarket own brand for the time being.

I'm due to bake another loaf tomorrow. I think I'll stick with the tin but will see if I can make some more tweaks.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I have watched a few of his videos, yes - there are lots to get through though! His voice is really annoying, bless him. He has a Home Counties accent, which is similar to where we are. But I think it's his emphasis really - he's just so damn enthusiastic and perky.

I don't use anything to knead - used to use flour, then oil, then discovered that as long as I kept the dough moving for the first two minutes, lifting it ever so slightly off the work surface between each knead, then it came together enough for me to knead as normal after that. I'm visually-impaired and whilst my sight is fortunately good enough to see what I'm doing, texture and smell are important too. So after two minutes kneading, the texture of dough changes markedly for me. And at about 8 minutes, it starts to smell 'bready' so I know it's nearly done. It's a really helpful way of doing things, like knowing the sound of a cake when it's cooked is very different to when it's still got a bit of baking to go.

I've actually been following Jack's approach to pre-shaping and shaping, but it hasn't worked as well for me with loaf tins. I use instant yeast, which he doesn't (other yeast is difficult for me to get at the moment) so I'm reluctant to leave it too long after pre-shaping in case it loses its 'oomph'. I haven't seen anything yet where he actually says what flour he uses but I've seen an off-cut of one of his packets when he's dusting flour and it's plain white. Both of our main bread flour brands have coloured packets so I'm guessing it might be a brand called Dove's Farm or more likely Wessex Mills, which is the brand I normally get from our greengrocer as it's not available in stores. But he can't get hold of it at the moment so I'm back to supermarket own brand for the time being.

I'm due to bake another loaf tomorrow. I think I'll stick with the tin but will see if I can make some more tweaks.

Lol, he’s definitely a perky guy!

Jack is one of the few bakers online who demonstrates proper bread baking techniques.

Not even King Arthur Flour, who’s education director is Jeffrey Hamelman, posts incorrect videos on technique. King Arthur Flour’s video on kneading shows the proper movement, but they throw down a ton of bench flour, which is totally wrong.

Jack is correct about the yeast. Instant yeast is really poor quality. The strain of instant yeast develops very quickly. So it plows through its food source (starch in the flour), then begins to die off when there’s no more food. You get a great first rise, and a poor second rise.

The yeast is no good for long fermentation. So it’s worthless for 24 hr fermentation.

You’re going to eventually hear terms like bucky dough. That’s dough that has lost its elasticity. Flour with higher protein are more likely to produce a bucky dough. And the type of yeast used will make a difference. Trust me you don’t want to use that instant yeast unless you want a flaccid worthless dough.

As your interest in bread develops, eventually you’ll move to sourdough so you’re not going to use much yeast anyway.

 

[Emmie]

Eek - I don't like sourdough! I really dislike the sour taste, even if it's slightly sour. I just can't get on with it. And I also don't like the texture you often get with it.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Eek - I don't like sourdough! I really dislike the sour taste, even if it's slightly sour. I just can't get on with it. And I also don't like the texture you often get with it.

OK so sourdough out. Sounds like you may be a super taster.

You may like to experiment with blending in flours, and using a poolish. These will enhance the flavor of bread without the sour taste.

 

[Emmie]

OK so sourdough out. Sounds like you may be a super taster.

You may like to experiment with blending in flours, and using a poolish. These will enhance the flavor of bread without the sour taste.

Ooh, never heard of a poolish. That's something to look at. I never thought I'd be much of a bread baker - freezing cold hands all the time so perfect for pastry - but I'm probably seeing the most rapid improvement in bread out of all my baking. I think I like the fact that it's quite scientific and actually, contrary to what I thought, bread isn't that fickle. It's actually quite reliable if you understand the process and can adapt as needed. You might not get an amazing loaf but you can get a decent one. It's really handy as my daughter is allergic to soya and it's nearly impossible to find commercial bread in the UK without soya flour in.

I do really taste slight differences in each loaf - for my last loaf I increased salt from 10g to 12g for 500g of flour. So from 2%-2.4%. I could really taste the salt but I definitely wouldn't say it was salty. It was much nicer in my opinion but I'm not sure whether others would agree. That's the difficulty - should a loaf have a very slight saltiness to it? A matter of taste but I'm not sure whether my taste is the same as other people's. My husband liked it too, so that's encouraging.

 

[Emmie]

I tried out the slap and fold technique rather than regular kneading and it just didn't work for me. Maybe because I had smaller quantities - 500g of flour. But also my dough didn't look as liquid as Richard Bertinet's when I turned it out. Both 70% hydration but his was like really thick slime whereas mine was thick and sticky (as it normally is at first). He bakes in the UK using UK flour brands so I can't think there would be that much variation between our recipes. When I picked the dough up, there was no 'tail' so I felt like I was just sort of folding it over on itself really. And the texture after 10 minutes was still quite bumpy so I gave it a bit of a knead in the end. I'm still using instant yeast as I just can't get anything else at the moment - probably lucky to get that - but have made nice loaves out of it in the past. But this time there just wasn't the extra rise in the oven that I normally get.

This time I also got a strange slightly whiter 'halo' within the bread, near the edges, as below - never seen that before. I follow the shaping technique from Bake with Jack but I often get big air holes where I've rolled the dough and it's like the spiral of dough hasn't fused together when proving and baking so not sure what's happening there. You can see the circular pattern of bubbles in the pic and further through the loaf there were a couple of splits along the line of the rolling of the dough.

I was disappointed but it tasted nice and sometimes you need to try new things.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

The technique is not normally used for white flour yeast breads since most of them are pretty low hydration. I am not a fan of the slap and fold myself.

I prefer the stretch and fold. Try a loaf with a poolish and maybe a blend with a bit of whole meal or maybe if you can track down a sack of Type 70 high extraction flour. A Type 70 would be a category French flour. It’s not quite wholemeal, not quite white bread flour. It is more flavorful because it has more bran and germ, but because some has been removed, it gives performance closer to a white bread flour. It is really a lovely flour for bread. Or to add some life to white bread.

The pattern in the crumb is just a shaping thing. Don’t freak out

 

[Emmie]

The technique is not normally used for white flour yeast breads since most of them are pretty low hydration. I am not a fan of the slap and fold myself.

I prefer the stretch and fold. Try a loaf with a poolish and maybe a blend with a bit of whole meal or maybe if you can track down a sack of Type 70 high extraction flour. A Type 70 would be a category French flour. It’s not quite wholemeal, not quite white bread flour. It is more flavorful because it has more bran and germ, but because some has been removed, it gives performance closer to a white bread flour. It is really a lovely flour for bread. Or to add some life to white bread.

The pattern in the crumb is just a shaping thing. Don’t freak out

Thank you. I'll have a look for type 70. I've found a nice little UK website that does lots of different yeasts and flours. Fresh yeast is still out of stock but they have dried active so will get myself some of that and work out how much I'll need as I assume active yeast can leaven a different amount of flour from instant yeast. They also do lots of flours, including a French T55 and some 15-16% protein Canadian ones, which I'm guessing I'll have to increase the hydration a bit more for? I don't think my husband cares about all this internet shopping if he's getting fresh bread every other day so I'm probably all good.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you. I'll have a look for type 70. I've found a nice little UK website that does lots of different yeasts and flours. Fresh yeast is still out of stock but they have dried active so will get myself some of that and work out how much I'll need as I assume active yeast can leaven a different amount of flour from instant yeast. They also do lots of flours, including a French T55 and some 15-16% protein Canadian ones, which I'm guessing I'll have to increase the hydration a bit more for? I don't think my husband cares about all this internet shopping if he's getting fresh bread every other day so I'm probably all good.

The French produce very good flours. More important is they understand flour, especially for bread better than most. The concept of a flour like T70 doesn’t exist outside France. There aren’t many mills outside of France that produce these types of flours.

Higher protein flour is not necessary better flour for bread. The higher the protein, the drier the dough. Adding more water means a stronger the gluten network. This changes mixing time. And it could also change the mixing method. And in the end with all that extra gluten network you could end up with a very chewy, very tough bread.

T55 is a lower extraction flour. It would be wet people call a “bread flour” or “white bread flour”. I hate using those terms because they don’t refer to any specifications.

The top two baguettes (whole and sliced) are a mix of flours similar to T55 and a actual Type 70; The bottom baguette is made with flour that is similar to the T55. Both are made with a poolish. You can see with the T70 high extraction flour, gives rich color, much like wholemeal flour. There’s more flavor, and of course, it’s nutritionally higher than the T55 because it contains more bran and germ in the flour.

 

[Emmie]

The French produce very good flours. More important is they understand flour, especially for bread better than most. The concept of a flour like T70 doesn’t exist outside France. There aren’t many mills outside of France that produce these types of flours.

Higher protein flour is not necessary better flour for bread. The higher the protein, the drier the dough. Adding more water means a stronger the gluten network. This changes mixing time. And it could also change the mixing method. And in the end with all that extra gluten network you could end up with a very chewy, very tough bread.

T55 is a lower extraction flour. It would be wet people call a “bread flour” or “white bread flour”. I hate using those terms because they don’t refer to any specifications.

The top two baguettes (whole and sliced) are a mix of flours similar to T55 and a actual Type 70; The bottom baguette is made with flour that is similar to the T55. Both are made with a poolish. You can see with the T70 high extraction flour, gives rich color, much like wholemeal flour. There’s more flavor, and of course, it’s nutritionally higher than the T55 because it contains more bran and germ in the flour.
View attachment 3602

Yes, I see the difference. I've had a look and the only T70 I seem to be able to get is a tiny bag that, even when mixed with white flour, would make at most 2x 2lb loaves.

I can get French T65 and T80 though so go figure. Can you use it for any bread? And without a poolish? I feel I may be asking for trouble if I try to do too many new things at once!

 

[ShuBunny]

@Emmie the sesame bread is wow.

 

[Emmie]

@Emmie the sesame bread is wow.

Thank you! My next one was a bit of a flop so I have some way to go before I'm consistent!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Yes, I see the difference. I've had a look and the only T70 I seem to be able to get is a tiny bag that, even when mixed with white flour, would make at most 2x 2lb loaves.

I can get French T65 and T80 though so go figure. Can you use it for any bread? And without a poolish? I feel I may be asking for trouble if I try to do too many new things at once!

The French label their flour by the ash content.
T65 is 65% ash content.
T80 is 80% ash content

The higher the ash content, the higher the protein content.

T80 is like T70 in that it is a higher extraction rate flour, BUT, the difference is the T80 is a higher 14% protein flour.

T65 has about a 12% - 13% protein content. It is not a high extraction flour, but a white flour. It is more like American King Arthur bread flour, or what you call a strong flour or a bread flour. Now that said, because of the way French flour is millled, their flours have superior strength to other flours. It is the reason why French flours are favored by bread bakers. French flours produce better volume and texture because of the cultivars and the milling. It also the reason why when it comes to laminated dough, the top bakers in the world prefer French flours.

To answer your question.

No to the T80, it is too high in protein for your type of breads.

Yes to T65. Even though it is not a high extraction flour, you should try it to see the differences in performances to the British strong flour and the other flours you use. The more you experiment with flour and work with different flours, the better you become as a baker.

 

[Emmie]

The French label their flour by the ash content.
T65 is 65% ash content.
T80 is 80% ash content

The higher the ash content, the higher the protein content.

T80 is like T70 in that it is a higher extraction rate flour, BUT, the difference is the T80 is a higher 14% protein flour.

T65 has about a 12% - 13% protein content. It is not a high extraction flour, but a white flour. It is more like American King Arthur bread flour, or what you call a strong flour or a bread flour. Now that said, because of the way French flour is millled, their flours have superior strength to other flours. It is the reason why French flours are favored by bread bakers. French flours produce better volume and texture because of the cultivars and the milling. It also the reason why when it comes to laminated dough, the top bakers in the world prefer French flours.

To answer your question.

No to the T80, it is too high in protein for your type of breads.

Yes to T65. Even though it is not a high extraction flour, you should try it to see the differences in performances to the British strong flour and the other flours you use. The more you experiment with flour and work with different flours, the better you become as a baker.

That's brilliant, thank you. Once you go down the baking rabbit hole, there are so many variables that it's easy to make a misstep - T65? T80? It's like algebra!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

That's brilliant, thank you. Once you go down the baking rabbit hole, there are so many variables that it's easy to make a misstep - T65? T80? It's like algebra!

Baking is very complex. There is so much to learn. That is why bakers divide into either one of two categories: pastry or bread. You can spend a lifetime just studying bread.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

BTW, be careful to double check that the French flour is certified French grown, harvested, and milled. Non GMO wheat. All wheat should be non GMO. But since COVID some French mills have purchased american wheat. You don’t want american wheat, milled the French way. Milling does make a difference, but it won’t be the same. You want French cultivars, milled the French way. It will not perform the same with american wheat cultivars.


See if you can find this brand: Le Moulin d'Auguste. Contact their customer service to see if they have stores/suppliers in the UK.

https://www.moulindauguste.fr/en/our-flours/