What are your incremental baking improvements?

[Emmie]

BTW, be careful to double check that the French flour is certified French grown, harvested, and milled. Non GMO wheat. All wheat should be non GMO. But since COVID some French mills have purchased american wheat. You don’t want american wheat, milled the French way. Milling does make a difference, but it won’t be the same. You want French cultivars, milled the French way. It will not perform the same with american wheat cultivars.


See if you can find this brand: Le Moulin d'Auguste. Contact their customer service to see if they have stores/suppliers in the UK.

https://www.moulindauguste.fr/en/our-flours/

I don’t think I can get that brand but I can get Foricher, which is milled in France. The T65 is 11+% protein, 0.62-0.75% ash. There is an organic T65 from Foricher which is 10% protein but this seems quite low.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I don’t think I can get that brand but I can get Foricher, which is milled in France. The T65 is 11+% protein, 0.62-0.75% ash. There is an organic T65 from Foricher which is 10% protein but this seems quite low.

French flour is milled differently, it performs differently. So even though it is in 11% range, if it is a French cultivar and milled in the French way, it will have more strength than other flours because of the way it is milled.

In the US, the wheat kernel is separated into bran, germ, and endosperm. The three parts are milled separately.

The endosperm is also milled so the flour milled from the center is separated from the flour milled closest to the outer layer of the endosperm.

The flour from the innermost part of the endosperm is top patent flour.

The flour from the outer part of the endosperm is second patent flour.

These milled parts are referred to as flour streams.

The streams are selectively blended with the milled bran and germ to make the various types of flours.

• bread flour
• all purpose flour
• pastry flour
• cake flour

So the wheat kernel is highly refined to allow the mill to make every possible type of flour.

Mills also frequently blend different wheat cultivars in order to deliver certain dough characteristics and performance qualities. And mills rarely state that fact on their sacks.


French flour is milled from different cultivars than American flours. It is not highly refined in the milling process like other flours.

The endosperm is not separated in to outer and inner flours. This changes the starch composite of the patent flour as a whole. The flour from the inner endosperm is purest of starch. It is stripped on all nutrients. Despite it’s lack of nutrients, it is popular in commercial baking because it produces a soft light, crumb and rises well. And it is very popular among home bakers in a lot of countries, including US, UK, Canada, of late throughout Asia.

But the French love their bread. And they have never been big on baking at home. Bakeries are ubiquitous in France and part of daily life. So the flour industry in France has always held to the standard of the professional bakers.

So while Americans and other countries highly refined the wheat, separate the kernel and mill each section separately, then re-blend flours to make a bunch of different flours, the French mill flour to make the best bread. They mill, then sift. So even though some bran and germ is sifted out, the composition of the flour is different because milling the whole kernel and endosperm leave more trace elements in the flour and changes the starch composition. It is the reason a French flour will have more color than a similar refined flour. And the reason it will have more volume and strength than the more processed flour.

T65 is used for baguettes and breads in France.

Flours from every country is vastly different because of the cultivars and milling.

There are some Canadian and American mills that mill in the French methods. And they mill excellent flours. Don’t get me wrong.

 

[Emmie]

French flour is milled differently, it performs differently. So even though it is in 11% range, if it is a French cultivar and milled in the French way, it will have more strength than other flours because of the way it is milled.

In the US, the wheat kernel is separated into bran, germ, and endosperm. The three parts are milled separately.

The endosperm is also milled so the flour milled from the center is separated from the flour milled closest to the outer layer of the endosperm.

The flour from the innermost part of the endosperm is top patent flour.

The flour from the outer part of the endosperm is second patent flour.

These milled parts are referred to as flour streams.

The streams are selectively blended with the milled bran and germ to make the various types of flours.

• bread flour
• all purpose flour
• pastry flour
• cake flour

So the wheat kernel is highly refined to allow the mill to make every possible type of flour.

Mills also frequently blend different wheat cultivars in order to deliver certain dough characteristics and performance qualities. And mills rarely state that fact on their sacks.


French flour is milled from different cultivars than American flours. It is not highly refined in the milling process like other flours.

The endosperm is not separated in to outer and inner flours. This changes the starch composite of the patent flour as a whole. The flour from the inner endosperm is purest of starch. It is stripped on all nutrients. Despite it’s lack of nutrients, it is popular in commercial baking because it produces a soft light, crumb and rises well. And it is very popular among home bakers in a lot of countries, including US, UK, Canada, of late throughout Asia.

But the French love their bread. And they have never been big on baking at home. Bakeries are ubiquitous in France and part of daily life. So the flour industry in France has always held to the standard of the professional bakers.

So while Americans and other countries highly refined the wheat, separate the kernel and mill each section separately, then re-blend flours to make a bunch of different flours, the French mill flour to make the best bread. They mill, then sift. So even though some bran and germ is sifted out, the composition of the flour is different because milling the whole kernel and endosperm leave more trace elements in the flour and changes the starch composition. It is the reason a French flour will have more color than a similar refined flour. And the reason it will have more volume and strength than the more processed flour.

T65 is used for baguettes and breads in France.

Flours from every country is vastly different because of the cultivars and milling.

There are some Canadian and American mills that mill in the French methods. And they mill excellent flours. Don’t get me wrong.

I have plumped for a 5kg bag of T65 and some active dry yeast. Fingers crossed!

 

[Emmie]

@Norcalbaker59 - My T65 flour and dried active yeast have arrived! I am embarrassingly excited. I have never baked with dried active yeast, always instant, so i'll be really interested to see how it turns out. I need to rethink my proving times now. I'm desperate to make a traditional English cottage loaf that I remember from my childhood that you just can't get these days, but I know they're quite hard to do so I'm going to do my standard 500g loaf first to get a feel for the new ingredients. Excited for tomorrow morning!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Norcalbaker59 - My T65 flour and dried active yeast have arrived! I am embarrassingly excited. I have never baked with dried active yeast, always instant, so i'll be really interested to see how it turns out. I need to rethink my proving times now. I'm desperate to make a traditional English cottage loaf that I remember from my childhood that you just can't get these days, but I know they're quite hard to do so I'm going to do my standard 500g loaf first to get a feel for the new ingredients. Excited for tomorrow morning!

View attachment 3689

yay. I’m excited too. I’m really busy this next few days so I won’t be on the site much but I will check in when I can.

 

[ShuBunny]

your excitement is infectious! @Emmie go go!

 

[Emmie]

your excitement is infectious! @Emmie go go!

I don't know whether I'll still be as enthusiastic attempting a cottage loaf - I've Googled pictures of them to try and find a really good-looking one and they're almost all awful! All these websites giving recipes for cottage loaves and I'm thinking a) that's hideous b) that's not a cottage loaf!

I have Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery and fortunately she gives quite good instructions in there that are along the lines of what I remember as a child. I'll get a few tin loaves under my belt then try it. An interesting instruction is that the top loaf is essentially placed upside down on top of the bottom one, so the two surfaces you've created tension in are facing each other. That actually makes sense I think, given the overall shape.

I've really surprised myself with the bread as it's never been my thing. But I like the fact that basic bread is very, very simple as a recipe and the improvement just comes with practice and experience. Plus, because our household gets through far more bread than it would cake, it means I can practise more regularly.

 

[Emmie]

yay. I’m excited too. I’m really busy this next few days so I won’t be on the site much but I will check in when I can.

Thanks Norcal, your input is always appreciated whenever you can give it.

After a bit of deliberation, I'm trying something new on top of the flour and yeast - maybe a bad idea to try too much at once. But I've made a poolish as I'm trying to use my baking knowledge by thinking that a longer process is going to get the best out of this type of flour. I can make sandwich bread any time but I'd really like to see and taste a difference. Not made a poolish before but it was very simple so I'm hoping it will be fine. I'm following the recipe for French-style country bread on the King Arthur website as you mention it frequently as a decent site for home bakers. We're having lamb stew for dinner tomorrow so I thought rather than making dumplings, we can have nice fresh dippy bread to soak up the juices. (Cue French people fainting in horror )

 

[Emmie]

Well, poolish was slightly bubbly this morning but fairly unimpressive. I read another recipe saying it should double in size overnight. Well mine was in a bowl so difficult to tell but it didn't actually look much bigger!

I've made up the dough and it's on its first rest. I always put it in my top oven (turned off of course) just to keep it safe from draughts. The temp is about 18C so will probably take nearer the upper end of the 1-2 hours the recipe suggests. This is the first time I've used active dry yeast and the slow pace of rising is freaking me out but I just have to trust the science.

The only thing I'm slightly worried about is the recipe says to reserve 90g of the flour and to add up to the full amount when kneading but, as is often the case, a wetter dough is better. Well I only added 15g of that 90g of flour and am wondering whether that is too wet for the dough to hold its shape. Working very wet dough doesn't stress me out so I quite like to do it as it feels like a bit of an achievement but I'm thinking maybe I needed more flour. Never mind, we'll see.

I have/will deviate from the recipe twice. The first time it said to add lukewarm water 100-115F to make the dough. To me that's not lukewarm and it just didn't feel right. The water I added was 84F. Even then that's warmer than I normally add - I tend to have the water at a temperature where if I put my hand in it, it doesn't feel hot or cold, just wet nothing, if that makes sense. My second deviation will be to follow the pre-shaping technique from the Bake with Jack videos - hopefully that will help the dough to hold its shape.

Right, I'm off to check on my dough!

 

[ShuBunny]

I usually reserve 10% of my total flour for any kneading or shaping. So that I don’t accidentally overflour. I’m not too hung up about sticky dough - cos i think some doughs are meant to be sticky.

Take what I sat with a huge pinch of salt. Amateur here. hope you get the bread you want for dinner

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I don't know whether I'll still be as enthusiastic attempting a cottage loaf - I've Googled pictures of them to try and find a really good-looking one and they're almost all awful! All these websites giving recipes for cottage loaves and I'm thinking a) that's hideous b) that's not a cottage loaf!

I have Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery and fortunately she gives quite good instructions in there that are along the lines of what I remember as a child. I'll get a few tin loaves under my belt then try it. An interesting instruction is that the top loaf is essentially placed upside down on top of the bottom one, so the two surfaces you've created tension in are facing each other. That actually makes sense I think, given the overall shape.

I've really surprised myself with the bread as it's never been my thing. But I like the fact that basic bread is very, very simple as a recipe and the improvement just comes with practice and experience. Plus, because our household gets through far more bread than it would cake, it means I can practise more regularly.

hahah, it’s funny how quickly baking can turn into an obsession. I spent years fixated on cooking. The area I live in is a major wine and food center. There’s something like a dozen Michelin stared restaurants in the Bay Area. So I was always taking cooking classes.

When I moved to Virginia our social life became far more active than it had ever been in California. We were entertaining or going out with our friends nearly every weekend. That not only furthered my interest in cooking, but inspired my husband to take classes with me. I started baking desserts to serve with my dinners and lunches. Then the holidays rolled around and I started baking cookies. all of the cookies turned out perfect, until I tried baking in the summer. It was the problem I had with creaming butter and sugar in the heat of the summer that forced me to do research. And that triggered my interest and what has become now a lifelong obsession with baking.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Well, poolish was slightly bubbly this morning but fairly unimpressive. I read another recipe saying it should double in size overnight. Well mine was in a bowl so difficult to tell but it didn't actually look much bigger!

I've made up the dough and it's on its first rest. I always put it in my top oven (turned off of course) just to keep it safe from draughts. The temp is about 18C so will probably take nearer the upper end of the 1-2 hours the recipe suggests. This is the first time I've used active dry yeast and the slow pace of rising is freaking me out but I just have to trust the science.

The only thing I'm slightly worried about is the recipe says to reserve 90g of the flour and to add up to the full amount when kneading but, as is often the case, a wetter dough is better. Well I only added 15g of that 90g of flour and am wondering whether that is too wet for the dough to hold its shape. Working very wet dough doesn't stress me out so I quite like to do it as it feels like a bit of an achievement but I'm thinking maybe I needed more flour. Never mind, we'll see.

I have/will deviate from the recipe twice. The first time it said to add lukewarm water 100-115F to make the dough. To me that's not lukewarm and it just didn't feel right. The water I added was 84F. Even then that's warmer than I normally add - I tend to have the water at a temperature where if I put my hand in it, it doesn't feel hot or cold, just wet nothing, if that makes sense. My second deviation will be to follow the pre-shaping technique from the Bake with Jack videos - hopefully that will help the dough to hold its shape.

Right, I'm off to check on my dough!

A poolish does it necessarily have to double in size.

If you use an overnight poolish, the two keys are using active dry yeast, not instant; and leaving in area where temperature will not exceed 75°F (23°C).


You just want to make sure the poolish shows signs of life. It should have a lot of bubbles. I always use a clear container so I can see the activity

It always a red flag when a recipe that indiscriminately add flours, especially during kneading.

But recipe said “reserve 90g”. If I’m understanding correctly that means taking 90 g of flour from the total flour for the recipe. Then using that to knead.

If that is the case, then the hydration level will not be off the baker’s percentages if you add the entire 90 g of flour. The recipe developer calculated the hydration on the total amount of flour including that 90 g that was set aside for kneading.

I’m really excited. I can’t wait to see how things turn out, no matter how they turn out!!!!

With the pandemic imports have come to a screeching halt here. Things are starting to pick up, but what is available is so expensive. A small sack of French flour is like $45 USD!

 

[Emmie]

A poolish does it necessarily have to double in size.

If you use an overnight poolish, the two keys are using active dry yeast, not instant; and leaving in area where temperature will not exceed 75°F (23°C).


You just want to make sure the poolish shows signs of life. It should have a lot of bubbles. I always use a clear container so I can see the activity
View attachment 3696

It always a red flag when a recipe that indiscriminately add flours, especially during kneading.

But recipe said “reserve 90g”. If I’m understanding correctly that means taking 90 g of flour from the total flour for the recipe. Then using that to knead.

If that is the case, then the hydration level will not be off the baker’s percentages if you add the entire 90 g of flour. The recipe developer calculated the hydration on the total amount of flour including that 90 g that was set aside for kneading.

I’m really excited. I can’t wait to see how things turn out, no matter how they turn out!!!!

With the pandemic imports have come to a screeching halt here. Things are starting to pick up, but what is available is so expensive. A small sack of French flour is like $45 USD!

$45?!

Well the loaf wasn't an unmitigated disaster but wasn't great. It was pretty flat and didn't have big air holes in.

Firstly the poolish was, I think, okay - 18C kitchen overnight (15hrs or so) with dried active yeast. I didn't proof my yeast to see if it was alive and maybe I need to do that but there were little bubble in the top of the polish in the morning.

Yes the recipe said to reserve the 90g flour from the total amount of flour in the recipe but not necessarily add all of it and the less the better was the implication. The recipe is here: https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/french-style-country-bread-recipe but to quote that bit it says: "Knead the dough, adding up to an additional 3/4 cup (90g) flour (as necessary to make a soft dough), 10 to 12 minutes"

If I had added all the flour, it would have given me a 70% hydration dough. I added probably 20g out of the 90g by the time I'd finished, making a 77% hydration dough and this is, I think where I went wrong. I used the stretching technique for wetter doughs and it seemed fine - after 12 minutes it was quite smooth and silky. But I think it was just too wet to hold its shape.

I did a pre-shape, 10 minutes rest, then a final shaping. Whilst I incorporated some good tension, the dough just spread out during proving. I only proved for 50 minutes (recipe said 45-90 minutes) because I was worried about how far it would spread if I left it! And it was very difficult to make cuts in the dough because it was so flat and loose. There was a little bit of oven spring but not much.

The recipe calls for opening the door every few minutes in the first 15 minutes of baking to spray water to create a crust. This meant I had to turn the oven temperature up to keep it hot as I think I opened the door 4 or 5 times. I don't think I'd do this again and just stick with the tray of water at the bottom that I normally use - the crust wasn't crisp at all in the end.

So the bread came out quite flat, with wibbly cuts and a close crumb, rather than the nice open one with big air holes that the recipe described. On the plus side, it does taste really nice. About 5% of the flour is wholewheat but I think it's also the time spent developing the flavours and the new T65 flour I used. The inside is darker in colour and richer in flavour and the crust, though not crispy, is chewy and very flavourful.

I will have to try it again but I need to get that classic open texture and a better shape. I'm fairly sure I need to add more flour but maybe other improvements too.

 

[ShuBunny]

It’s a very edible looking bread

 

[Emmie]

It’s a very edible looking bread

It really is nice, just not quite what I had in mind.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Emmie, girl, you made that loaf on your solo bake? Lemme tell ya, there are many bakers who can’t make a loaf that good after months of trying!!! Damn girl, you did a good job. You just need some training on shaping and some practice on proofing.

The tight uniform crumb and low rise is usually a sign of over-proofing. I’ll put links to videos below that will give you some info on proofing, shaping, and other baking info.

Always work out your hydration percentages before you start:

Water 227 ml x 2 = 454mL

Flour 148 + 28 + 450 = 626g or 148 + 28 + 480 = 656g



454 ÷ 626 = 0.725

454 ÷ 656 = 0.692

72.5 – 69.2 = 3.3%

The difference in hydration of 3.3%. If you feel comfortable handling a drier dough, you can add the additional flour.



How to handle high hydration dough

Scroll down and review Jack’s videos #3, #4, #12, #14

https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos

 

[Emmie]

@Emmie, girl, you made that loaf on your solo bake? Lemme tell ya, there are many bakers who can’t make a loaf that good after months of trying!!! Damn girl, you did a good job. You just need some training on shaping and some practice on proofing.

The tight uniform crumb and low rise is usually a sign of over-proofing. I’ll put links to videos below that will give you some info on proofing, shaping, and other baking info.

Always work out your hydration percentages before you start:

Water 227 ml x 2 = 454mL

Flour 148 + 28 + 450 = 626g or 148 + 28 + 480 = 656g



454 ÷ 626 = 0.725

454 ÷ 656 = 0.692

72.5 – 69.2 = 3.3%

The difference in hydration of 3.3%. If you feel comfortable handling a drier dough, you can add the additional flour.



How to handle high hydration dough

Scroll down and review Jack’s videos #3, #4, #12, #14

https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos

Really? I thought it was a bit of a disaster!

I actually only used 586g of flour total as it said up to 90g more so I only added 20g. I think that's about 78% hydration. The dough was wet like a ciabatta dough so I used the Bake with Jack method of stretching it with the scraper in the bowl. It was much easier to handle after the first rise but still really loose - looser than on the SFBI video you attached. I pre-shaped it following the Bake with Jack video and after 10 minutes on the worktop it had spread out. So I did the final shaping (Bake with Jack method again) and left it to prove but even after 10 minutes of proving it had spread out flat again. When I scored it, it didn't deflate and it did rise a bit in the oven. I don't know whether I over-shaped it and broke the tension on the surface but it looked nice and smooth and had tautness with a bit of spring. It looked really god for the first 5 minutes after shaping.

I'm thinking 78% hydration is just too wet for a free-form loaf? My regular tin loaf is 70% and I find that very easy to work with and never use dusting flour. Then maybe I also over-proved, as you said - 10 minutes after pre-shaping then another 50 minutes before baking. (Plus an initial rise before shaping of 90 minutes). I'm thinking of using my regular 70% hydration recipe with the new flour and yeast so I can get a better feel for it compared to what I was using before.

Thank you so much for your kind words. I'll just keep going and think of how far I've come - little steps are fine if they're in the right direction.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Really? I thought it was a bit of a disaster!

I actually only used 586g of flour total as it said up to 90g more so I only added 20g. I think that's about 78% hydration. The dough was wet like a ciabatta dough so I used the Bake with Jack method of stretching it with the scraper in the bowl. It was much easier to handle after the first rise but still really loose - looser than on the SFBI video you attached. I pre-shaped it following the Bake with Jack video and after 10 minutes on the worktop it had spread out. So I did the final shaping (Bake with Jack method again) and left it to prove but even after 10 minutes of proving it had spread out flat again. When I scored it, it didn't deflate and it did rise a bit in the oven. I don't know whether I over-shaped it and broke the tension on the surface but it looked nice and smooth and had tautness with a bit of spring. It looked really god for the first 5 minutes after shaping.

I'm thinking 78% hydration is just too wet for a free-form loaf? My regular tin loaf is 70% and I find that very easy to work with and never use dusting flour. Then maybe I also over-proved, as you said - 10 minutes after pre-shaping then another 50 minutes before baking. (Plus an initial rise before shaping of 90 minutes). I'm thinking of using my regular 70% hydration recipe with the new flour and yeast so I can get a better feel for it compared to what I was using before.

Thank you so much for your kind words. I'll just keep going and think of how far I've come - little steps are fine if they're in the right direction.

@Emmie, that loaf is no where near a disaster. You have good shape. And I think if you had some oven spring, the scoring would have been good too. The color is very nice, you can see the maillard reaction. Too often novice bakers under bake, and pull out a pale loaf.

I glad you watched Jack’s videos. His videos are really some of the better ones on the internet.

Work with whatever hydration you feel comfortable with—that is what is important right now. The more you bake, the more you get a feel for the process; the more your confidence builds. It’s a learning process. When you repeat it enough times, you get muscle memory for the feel of the dough, the movements. Then you advance to higher hydration.

Keep an eye on the temperatures. I know I sound like a broken record, but time and temperature is everything. In fact, the training center where I take a lot of classes has that those words printed on the wall in the classroom.

Don’t be afraid to poke your dough. Any indentation you make will smooth out in baking. A lot of bakers are under the mistaken belief that if the dough rises before baking, it is perfectly fine. But nothing can be further from the truth. An over-proofed dough actually deflates during baking. The dough is weaken, so when the steam creates CO2 and the oven spring happens, the dough expands, but tears some, and before it can set during starch gelatinization, it collapses. So keep an eye on the rise, when it looks like is getting nice and full, start touching it.

 

[Emmie]

@Emmie, that loaf is no where near a disaster. You have good shape. And I think if you had some oven spring, the scoring would have been good too. The color is very nice, you can see the maillard reaction. Too often novice bakers under bake, and pull out a pale loaf.

I glad you watched Jack’s videos. His videos are really some of the better ones on the internet.

Work with whatever hydration you feel comfortable with—that is what is important right now. The more you bake, the more you get a feel for the process; the more your confidence builds. It’s a learning process. When you repeat it enough times, you get muscle memory for the feel of the dough, the movements. Then you advance to higher hydration.

Keep an eye on the temperatures. I know I sound like a broken record, but time and temperature is everything. In fact, the training center where I take a lot of classes has that those words printed on the wall in the classroom.

Don’t be afraid to poke your dough. Any indentation you make will smooth out in baking. A lot of bakers are under the mistaken belief that if the dough rises before baking, it is perfectly fine. But nothing can be further from the truth. An over-proofed dough actually deflates during baking. The dough is weaken, so when the steam creates CO2 and the oven spring happens, the dough expands, but tears some, and before it can set during starch gelatinization, it collapses. So keep an eye on the rise, when it looks like is getting nice and full, start touching it.
View attachment 3721

I’m just going to have to keep practising! I am considering a cottage loaf though! But I’m never going to be able to get it as crusty as a bakery. I’m toying with the idea of throwing a handful of ice cubes in a tray at the bottom of the oven but don’t want to lower the temperature too much.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I’m just going to have to keep practising! I am considering a cottage loaf though! But I’m never going to be able to get it as crusty as a bakery. I’m toying with the idea of throwing a handful of ice cubes in a tray at the bottom of the oven but don’t want to lower the temperature too much.

You can get the loaf very crusty with steam in the oven. Just place a small tray on the oven floor or lower rack and add boiling water. I place it in the oven about 5 minutes before baking so when I open the door some of the steam escapes. I don’t want too much steam in the oven.

Alternatively, you can bake in a cast iron dutch oven. Just make sure the knobs on the dutch oven are safe to high temperatures.

explains methods for adding steam to oven

Baking bread with steam

Baking bread with steam is the key to a golden, crisp, shiny crust in your bread. Here are the ways to do it at home.

www.kingarthurbaking.com