Re-baking crème-pâtissière/pastry cream in a tart/cake recipe that requires baking.

[wesley]

I've read from a number of reliable baker sources who claim you cannot use cooked crème-pâtissière in a recipe that requires further baking. Something to do with curdling. I have recently discovered some European bakers who are making tarts that have crème-pâtissière as an ingredient, and, once made, they are placing the crème-pâtissière between layers and re-baking it in several tart recipes, with seemingly no ill effect.

Can someone explain how this works, if it can work, and why the information is so conflicting? Thank you!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I've read from a number of reliable baker sources who claim you cannot use cooked crème-pâtissière in a recipe that requires further baking. Something to do with curdling. I have recently discovered some European bakers who are making tarts that have crème-pâtissière as an ingredient, and, once made, they are placing the crème-pâtissière between layers and re-baking it in several tart recipes, with seemingly no ill effect.

Can someone explain how this works, if it can work, and why the information is so conflicting? Thank you!

Baking pastry cream is not new. Its standard in an French apple tart.

Pastry cream is a custard. It has to be heated to 180°F minimum in order to thicken properly. Custards can be cooked on the stovetop or in the oven does not matter. Flan, quiche, cheesecake are all examples of custards baked in the oven.

Reheating it again is not going to hurt it.

 

[wesley]

@Norcalbaker59
Thank you for responding. I am an experienced baker who is French-trained, with plenty of focus on crème-pâtissière through the years. But I never encountered recipes (until this week) that called for making crème-pâtissière first, as an ingredient of a torta recipe, and then baking the torta recipe , further cooking the custard for another 40 minutes.

In doing more research, there are several baking sources, including King Arthur Flour, who claim you can't or shouldn't re-cook custard cream in a recipe once it is already cooked. They claim the cooked custard will curdle or be destroyed.

I tried to contact the chefs of the new recipes that interest me, but none speak English.

I'm OK with experimenting myself on these new recipes, but before I take the time and spend the money, I thought I would seek experienced feedback. "Reheating it again is not going to hurt it." is the first time I've read that. I am encouraged. Thank you.

 

[Cahoot]

@Norcalbaker59
Thank you for responding. I am an experienced baker who is French-trained, with plenty of focus on crème-pâtissière through the years. But I never encountered recipes (until this week) that called for making crème-pâtissière first, as an ingredient of a torta recipe, and then baking the torta recipe , further cooking the custard for another 40 minutes.

In doing more research, there are several baking sources, including King Arthur Flour, who claim you can't or shouldn't re-cook custard cream in a recipe once it is already cooked. They claim the cooked custard will curdle or be destroyed.

I tried to contact the chefs of the new recipes that interest me, but none speak English.

I'm OK with experimenting myself on these new recipes, but before I take the time and spend the money, I thought I would seek experienced feedback. "Reheating it again is not going to hurt it." is the first time I've read that. I am encouraged. Thank you.

Baking pastry cream in a tart or on a puff pastry item is fairly common, I'm surprised you've never encountered it. For example, flan patissiere (also known as Parisian flan) is literally pastry cream that's fully cooked on the stovetop then baked in a tart shell until the top is very well browned. And it doesn't have a curdled texture whatsoever, the custard can still be very creamy inside. However it depends on your formula too - I guess that one with too high ratios of eggs or not enough starch might curdle a bit when bake.

 

[wesley]

Baking pastry cream in a tart or on a puff pastry item is fairly common, I'm surprised you've never encountered it. For example, flan patissiere (also known as Parisian flan) is literally pastry cream that's fully cooked on the stovetop then baked in a tart shell until the top is very well browned. And it doesn't have a curdled texture whatsoever, the custard can still be very creamy inside. However it depends on your formula too - I guess that one with too high ratios of eggs or not enough starch might curdle a bit when bake.

I have plenty of experience with puff pastry, but the crème-pâtissière has always been prepared in advance, cooled, and added after the puff pastry has been baked and cooled. I have no experience with baking puff pastry and crème-pâtissière at the same time in the same recipe.

I also have no experience with flan patissiere. I enjoy eating all versions of custard, but there are many versions I have not yet made. However, your description of how Parisian Flan is made suggests to me there are lots of baking authorities who don't know what they are talking about. I am encouraged by this insight, thank you.

The ratios of egg in some of these new recipes are also perplexing to me. Some of these recipes call for whole eggs in the custard while others call for yolks only. So I was wondering if that made a difference in the baking science.

Based on the replies so far, it looks like I may have to see for myself and take the plunge. I'm so grateful for the thoughtful feedback. Thank you.

 

[wesley]

Thank you, especially, for mentioning Parisian Flan. In my previous research, I spent hours Googling terms in hopes of finding desserts that featured cooked custard being re-cooked in a baked recipe. None of my search words provided adequate results, and I grew very tired of scrolling through endless pages of creme brulee recipes . With the help of this thread, I searched "le flan parisien," and valuable information overflowed (written in French), much of it fascinating to me.

There seem to be an abundance of crème-pâtissière versions that perform just fine when baked in a separate recipe. Since I use crème-pâtissière poudre instead of corn starch or flour, I was happy to find lots of versions that speak directly to my favorite process.

I'm totally confident these new dessert recipes I mentioned earlier stand a good chance of working out.

 

[Cahoot]

Thank you, especially, for mentioning Parisian Flan. In my previous research, I spent hours Googling terms in hopes of finding desserts that featured cooked custard being re-cooked in a baked recipe. None of my search words provided adequate results, and I grew very tired of scrolling through endless pages of creme brulee recipes . With the help of this thread, I searched "le flan parisien," and valuable information overflowed (written in French), much of it fascinating to me.

There seem to be an abundance of crème-pâtissière versions that perform just fine when baked in a separate recipe. Since I use crème-pâtissière poudre instead of corn starch or flour, I was happy to find lots of versions that speak directly to my favorite process.

I'm totally confident these new dessert recipes I mentioned earlier stand a good chance of working out.

Glad I could help! I made Parisian flan once before and it was absolutely delicious, even though it's such a simple pastry. I hope your recipes with baking pastry cream turn out well

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you, especially, for mentioning Parisian Flan. In my previous research, I spent hours Googling terms in hopes of finding desserts that featured cooked custard being re-cooked in a baked recipe. None of my search words provided adequate results, and I grew very tired of scrolling through endless pages of creme brulee recipes . With the help of this thread, I searched "le flan parisien," and valuable information overflowed (written in French), much of it fascinating to me.

There seem to be an abundance of crème-pâtissière versions that perform just fine when baked in a separate recipe. Since I use crème-pâtissière poudre instead of corn starch or flour, I was happy to find lots of versions that speak directly to my favorite process.

I'm totally confident these new dessert recipes I mentioned earlier stand a good chance of working out.

just google French apple tart with pastry cream. The French version is called tarte aux pommes a la crème pâtissière or tarte aux pommes crème pâtissière



American recipe

https://www.thespruceeats.com/french-apple-tart-tarte-aux-pommes-2394428


That’s odd that King Arthur flour sources would say that you can’t bake it because the director of education is Jeffrey Hamelman. Hamelman is a master baker and a winner of the Coupe du Monde de la Boulangerie.

Are you sure they’re not talking about trying to re-boil a custard on the stove top to fix a watery custard? Because that would be a whole different issue altogether. And you can’t re-boil a custard that was not properly cooked in the first place.

 

[wesley]

That’s odd that King Arthur flour sources would say that you can’t bake it because the director of education is Jeffrey Hamelman. Hamelman is a master baker and a winner of the Coupe du Monde de la Boulangerie.

How to make pastry cream

Do you want to make dessert that will separate you from the crowd? Something that will make people go weak at the knees? Something that will make folks say, "You made this from scratch?!" Then you need to learn how to make pastry cream. Pastry cream, or crème pâtissière, is a rich, velvety...

www.kingarthurbaking.com

If you look in the Comment section, on May 9, 2020, Emma asks the very question I wanted answered. Annabelle Nicholson, for King Arthur Flour, answers Emma's question, and her answer seems very incorrect, based on this thread and the new research I found. The KA website is not the only place making this false claim, but it was the easiest for me to find in my search History.

One of the French chefs I contacted by email did finally get back to me this morning. (I am so grateful for the helpful people in our world.) My French is terrible, but in her email, she referred to "le flan Parisien" as an example for discrediting my flawed research.

I am quite confident now that the new recipes I discovered will work, and I won't hesitate giving them a try.

 

[wesley]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to warn fellow cooking readers. While doing the research on re-baking crème pâtissière in a recipe, and trying to figure out it whether it will in fact curdle, separate, or be destroyed by the re-cooking, I relied on some French YouTube videos. I confess my computer savvy is limited. I found some outstanding information from reliable sources in the YouTube "Comments" section on each video. There are often hundreds of "praise" posts to weed through, but many specific baking questions presented to the chefs got answered in the Comments section. Amazing, helpful information.

Much to my disgust and frustration, one of the comment links I clicked on was virus attacking Malware. Even though the link took me to the information I was seeking, my Apple computer fell prey to a virus attack. I spent an entire day trying to destroy the virus to no good end. I was only able to get rid of it by deleting Google Chrome entirely, which is more complicated than simply trashing the program. I had to re-install Chrome and start from scratch with the program. Luckily, I had my Bookmarks and Preferences saved in a back-up version. Even so, the process was a serious pain. I'm happy to warn others, even on the cooking sites, evil lurks. Be careful.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to warn fellow cooking readers. While doing the research on re-baking crème pâtissière in a recipe, and trying to figure out it whether it will in fact curdle, separate, or be destroyed by the re-cooking, I relied on some French YouTube videos. I confess my computer savvy is limited. I found some outstanding information from reliable sources in the YouTube "Comments" section on each video. There are often hundreds of "praise" posts to weed through, but many specific baking questions presented to the chefs got answered in the Comments section. Amazing, helpful information.

Much to my disgust and frustration, one of the comment links I clicked on was virus attacking Malware. Even though the link took me to the information I was seeking, my Apple computer fell prey to a virus attack. I spent an entire day trying to destroy the virus to no good end. I was only able to get rid of it by deleting Google Chrome entirely, which is more complicated than simply trashing the program. I had to re-install Chrome and start from scratch with the program. Luckily, I had my Bookmarks and Preferences saved in a back-up version. Even so, the process was a serious pain. I'm happy to warn others, even on the cooking sites, evil lurks. Be careful.

thanks for the warning. Normally Apple is safe from malware. Are use Apple products as well. But I guess they creeps out there are attacking both PCs and Mac products now. It’s frustrating.

 

[wesley]

Normally Apple is safe from malware.

Thanks to the iPhone's popularity, hackers no longer view Apple as an outlier. This was not the first time my computer got infected. My first virus was delivered via a Word doc. I learned long ago to never click on any hotlinks or unsolicited emails, but it never occurred to me this could be true of Comment sections on cooking videos. No sector is innocent anymore. Foreign language recipe videos are particularly vulnerable. Lots of questions about baking technique and professional practices, and readers often post page links to other valuable information addressing the subject at hand. I learned another lesson.

But I'm thrilled to discover the myth surrounding re-cooking crème pâtissière.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thanks to the iPhone's popularity, hackers no longer view Apple as an outlier. This was not the first time my computer got infected. My first virus was delivered via a Word doc. I learned long ago to never click on any hotlinks or unsolicited emails, but it never occurred to me this could be true of Comment sections on cooking videos. No sector is innocent anymore. Foreign language recipe videos are particularly vulnerable. Lots of questions about baking technique and professional practices, and readers often post page links to other valuable information addressing the subject at hand. I learned another lesson.

But I'm thrilled to discover the myth surrounding re-cooking crème pâtissière.

Well that’s good to know. All my devices are Apple. I don’t use social media really to speak of. But I go on a lot of baking blogs and websites. I occasionally click a link in a comment. But I won’t be doing that anymore.

My computer, phone, and iPad are filled up with recipes and photos of baked goods. My laptop battery died on me. So I’m debating replacing the battery or just buying a new laptop or Mac desktop. Since the iPad functions so much like a laptop these days anyway.

But then Apple just came out with the iPhone 12 so I’m looking at that too. I have the Xs. So it’s time for an upgrade on my phone.

 

[Adamski]

Guys, firstly can I say as a newbie to creme patissiere this year, this thread has been a great read.

I have been obsessing over pastel De natas and custard tarts....more specifically the filling. I have had good results with both baking a thickened creme pat and also with using the more traditional Portuguese method that has a thinner custard.

I have attached a photo of the best version I have tasted so far & I cannot seem to replicate the texture. I would describe the texture as similar to a baked cheesecake but still a custard if that makes sense. Has anyone any ideas of how this may be achieved - when I increase the amount of yolks, it does get more dense, but is nowhere near as smooth as the pic shown

Thanks guys

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Guys, firstly can I say as a newbie to creme patissiere this year, this thread has been a great read.

I have been obsessing over pastel De natas and custard tarts....more specifically the filling. I have had good results with both baking a thickened creme pat and also with using the more traditional Portuguese method that has a thinner custard.

I have attached a photo of the best version I have tasted so far & I cannot seem to replicate the texture. I would describe the texture as similar to a baked cheesecake but still a custard if that makes sense. Has anyone any ideas of how this may be achieved - when I increase the amount of yolks, it does get more dense, but is nowhere near as smooth as the pic shown

Thanks guys

Pastel de natas is like the chocolate chip cookie in America: a national favorite available in every bakery; everyone has their own version, so very similar but not identical.

When someone approaches me to reproduce and “authentic“ version of a recipe, I explain such is not possible.

The problem with trying to re-create a iconic baked good from another country is the conversion means using foreign ingredients.

First problem is these normally baked in a commercial oven, on commercial equipment at a high temperature, very quickly. The home oven doesn’t go to these temperatures, so bakeware rated for the temperatures because pastry is not baked at these temperatures.

And then there’s the issue of differences, if you’re in the US egg is smaller. So the yolk will be smaller. Also Americans wash the eggs before sending them to market. This removes the protective skin from the egg making it porous. To prevent the egg from developing salmonella and other harmful bacteria the egg must be refrigerated. Refrigeration has adverse effect on the quality of the egg, including the weight, color, and proteins that ultimately determine the cooked texture.

And then there is the species of chicken. All commercial egg production uses hybrid chickens that are bred to be high producers. But each country is going to have their preferred chicken breed. Some bakers may buy local eggs from ranchers who breed indigenous hens. So the quality of the egg will be significantly different from anything you would get at the grocery store.

European butterfat content in butter is higher than American butter.

You can make adjustments for these differences the best you can. But in all honesty it’s just not possible to re-create a bakery quality product at home, especially a product from another country. When a professional baker releases a recipe for home use, usually quite a bit is been changed since there are products that are not available to the home cook.


l

 

[Adamski]

Thanks for the reply Norcal, I appreciate your time.

I'm actually from Ireland & the tart attached is from a bakery in Ireland . What is very wierd is that I can replicate the natas I've had in Portugal much better than the one I bought just a few miles from my house

They told me they use only yolks, heavy cream (double as we call it) & milk.

I'm wondering how they get that dry textured baked cheesecake like effect, ive found not thickening the custard before baking helps get that smooth creamy finish, but I'm close to giving up on replocating the texture in the attached pic

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thanks for the reply Norcal, I appreciate your time.

I'm actually from Ireland & the tart attached is from a bakery in Ireland . What is very wierd is that I can replicate the natas I've had in Portugal much better than the one I bought just a few miles from my house

They told me they use only yolks, heavy cream (double as we call it) & milk.

I'm wondering how they get that dry textured baked cheesecake like effect, ive found not thickening the custard before baking helps get that smooth creamy finish, but I'm close to giving up on replocating the texture in the attached pic

@Adamski, yes yolk only is correct. But Cream is normally not used. Milk and flour is usually used. i’m out and about right now, so can’t google much. Look up Shawn Gawle‘s recipe. He’s an American pastry chef, but really outstanding. A Michelin three star chef. he has a recipe for flour and milk. Give that a try and see if that’s the texture you are looking for.

Keep in mind that in a bakery in Portugal these things are baked at something like 700°F. Someone got really angry with me here not too long ago because they couldn’t locate bakeware rated for 550°F To make these at home. They didn’t want to take my word on it that no bakeware is rated for that temperature because pastry is not baked at that temperature. This is an outlier.

Some things cannot be replicated at home.

if the flour version is not what you’re looking for let me know and we can talk a little bit more.

 

[retired baker]

I've read from a number of reliable baker sources who claim you cannot use cooked crème-pâtissière in a recipe that requires further baking. Something to do with curdling. I have recently discovered some European bakers who are making tarts that have crème-pâtissière as an ingredient, and, once made, they are placing the crème-pâtissière between layers and re-baking it in several tart recipes, with seemingly no ill effect.

Can someone explain how this works, if it can work, and why the information is so conflicting? Thank you!

They don't know what they don't know.
French frangipane is pate d'amonde with pastry cream folded in before baking.

American frangipane is what they call pate d'amonde in france.

 

[strawbrook]

I have just made a (stovetop cooked, flour/ egg/ based) pastry cream and baked it, with fruit on top and without, and it has curdled both times.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I have just made a (stovetop cooked, flour/ egg/ based) pastry cream and baked it, with fruit on top and without, and it has curdled both times.

Flour based custard is an inferior thickener because the starch gelatinization temperature is low 124°F - 140°F. When flour is in a liquid and subjected to high temperature for extended period, it breaks down.

Cornstarch does not begin to thicken until just over 200°F. It can withstand higher temperatures for longer. For this reason cornstarch is the preferred starch for thickening pastry cream.

If you want to use flour, then It is best that you pre-bake your pastry shell, then fill with chilled pastry cream and top with fruit.


Explanation of starch gelatinization

This video shows various starches and differences in characteristics of gelatinization; skip to 2:40 to see the 6 starches