Cinnamon buns

[LamsMekk]

Hello!

I made cinnamon buns for the first time today and it seems that they’re not proofing nicely during the second proof.

I have attached a picture it’s a not super clear sorry but better than nothing.

Have I rolled them too tightly?

Any expert advice on how to make cinnamon buns as I’m in love with them!

Many thanks in advance!

 

[LamsMekk]

So I’ve just noticed that the heat of the proofing area has made the butter sugar mixture melt which I’m assuming has affected the proof? Is there anyway around this?

Thahjs

 

[Norcalbaker59]

So I’ve just noticed that the heat of the proofing area has made the butter sugar mixture melt which I’m assuming has affected the proof? Is there anyway around this?

Thahjs

Pls post your recipe. I need to see what went in it and the mixing method to help you troubleshoot. The pic helps also, I can see it was rolled too thin. But I need to see the full recipe. And note anything you did differently (substitution of any ingredients, changes to mixing methods etc)

 

[LamsMekk]

Hi!
I’m unable to post the link but I used the preppy kitchen recipe for cinnamon buns.

The only thing that I substituted was light brown soft sugar for dark brown soft sugar.

They were a disaster, not so much the bread, I mean it DEFINITELY could have proofed a lot more but more so the taste. There was far too much filling and it just made them taste gross. They were certified kitchen disaster!

 

[LamsMekk]

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I’m really not a fan of his work at all.

One of the things you need to keep in mind is the differences in flour.

The flour in the UK is naturally low in protein, it’s about 9%. This is due to the domestic wheat. In fact the domestic wheat is so low in protein you cannot make bread with it. The wheat that is cultivated in the UK for bread is actually imported, mainly from Canada and Australia.


this recipe was developed using King Arthur AP flour, which has 11.7% protein. That’s a pretty high protein content.


Then he uses a lot of fat (butter and sour cream in the dough). These fats are really going to undermine the structure of the dough if the protein content is low.


So if you used UK plain flour, this recipe would fail because the flour would not be strong enough for a good rise with all that fat in the dough. Personally I don’t like adding all that fat in the dough. To get a soft dough, I use what’s called tangzhong. It’s a cooked flour and water roux; when added in small amounts to a dough, it makes it very light and soft. I developed a cinnamon roll recipe a couple years ago with this method.

Tangzhong also produces a better texture. If you look at the texture of his rolls, you can see it’s dense closed crumb. Tangzhong has a lighter more open crumb.

He uses a cream cheese icing, which was made very popular by a chain of shops in the US called Cinnabon. These icings are cloyingly sweet, and just totally overwhelm the cinnamon roll. I prefer a classic sugar glaze.

He’s also totally wrong about instant yeast being the same as active dry yeast, saying the only difference is the size of the granule. Instant yeast and active dry yeast are two totally different strains of yeast. Instant yeast develops very rapidly. It’s a poor yeast because it develop so rapidly that it plows through its foods sources then, begins to die off. You get a good first rise, and a mediocre second rise.


==================

I haven’t used my recipe in a while. It’s a combination of a low protein flour and strong flour. In a week or so I’ll run it through a test. Then I’ll send it to you.


tangzhong cinnamon roll
unglazed

Don’t roll your dough too thin. And don’t make it too wide. You only want about 3 - 4 turns.

 

[LamsMekk]

I’m really not a fan of his work at all.

One of the things you need to keep in mind is the differences in flour.

The flour in the UK is naturally low in protein, it’s about 9%. This is due to the domestic wheat. In fact the domestic wheat is so low in protein you cannot make bread with it. The wheat that is cultivated in the UK for bread is actually imported, mainly from Canada and Australia.


this recipe was developed using King Arthur AP flour, which has 11.7% protein. That’s a pretty high protein content.


Then he uses a lot of fat (butter and sour cream in the dough). These fats are really going to undermine the structure of the dough if the protein content is low.


So if you used UK plain flour, this recipe would fail because the flour would not be strong enough for a good rise with all that fat in the dough. Personally I don’t like adding all that fat in the dough. To get a soft dough, I use what’s called tangzhong. It’s a cooked flour and water roux; when added in small amounts to a dough, it makes it very light and soft. I developed a cinnamon roll recipe a couple years ago with this method.

Tangzhong also produces a better texture. If you look at the texture of his rolls, you can see it’s dense closed crumb. Tangzhong has a lighter more open crumb.

He uses a cream cheese icing, which was made very popular by a chain of shops in the US called Cinnabon. These icings are cloyingly sweet, and just totally overwhelm the cinnamon roll. I prefer a classic sugar glaze.

He’s also totally wrong about instant yeast being the same as active dry yeast, saying the only difference is the size of the granule. Instant yeast and active dry yeast are two totally different strains of yeast. Instant yeast develops very rapidly. It’s a poor yeast because it develop so rapidly that it plows through its foods sources then, begins to die off. You get a good first rise, and a mediocre second rise.


==================

I haven’t used my recipe in a while. It’s a combination of a low protein flour and strong flour. In a week or so I’ll run it through a test. Then I’ll send it to you.


tangzhong cinnamon roll
unglazed
View attachment 3034


View attachment 3035


Don’t roll your dough too thin. And don’t make it too wide. You only want about 3 - 4 turns.
View attachment 3037

View attachment 3036

Omg I’ve so relieved that you’ve said this!!!! I have made atleast 4 things using his recipies and every single one of them he come out overly, overly moist, verging on soggy. I honestly for so disheartened because I thought it was my fault and I was just incompetent at following the recipes! I’m so happy!

Also, I agree that the second proof is often rubbish with fast action yeast. The yeast seems to burn out so I think fresh or active yeast is a better Option especially because A slow rise is better than a fast one from what I gather..?

if you could send me the recipe that would be amazing! I’d love to give it a go today. Also, can I use bread flour instead? Or should I use the flour that I showed you in the doughnut recipe?

Many thanks for sharing your amazing knowledge with me again!

 

[LamsMekk]

 

[LamsMekk]

Reviews are good on this. She uses an INSANE amount of flour for both kneading and dusting though which I always find a bit tricky. I never ever add extra flour when kneading dough but when I watch a video in which someone has I wonder if not adding the extra flour in this instance would undermine the structure of the dough?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Reviews are good on this. She uses an INSANE amount of flour for both kneading and dusting though which I always find a bit tricky. I never ever add extra flour when kneading dough but when I watch a video in which someone has I wonder if not adding the extra flour in this instance would undermine the structure of the dough?

I have not tried any of her recipes though I checked out a few of her videos. Overall I like what I see in some of her videos. though she definitely does things incorrectly with the kneading, using wrong temperature butter in creaming etc.

I would not add a bunch of on the counter when kneading. Do you see how much excess flour still on the counter when she’s done? She’s not using the flour for anything other than convenience to herself because she doesn’t know how to deal with a sticky dough.

Rather I would increase the flour in the recipe by about 5%. Do you know the weight of the flour is 340g.

340 x .05 = 17 so that comes to 357.

So just round up 360g.

I would just use active dry yeast if you have it. She stated that you should increase active dry yeast 9g. That’s plenty for 360 g of flour.

Sprinkle the dry active yeast over the milk. Let the yeast develop in the milk. Do not add the fat into. Fat will inhibit the development of yeast.

I let my dough rise until double. I do not use bowls because you cannot tell the volume change in a bowl. I use square food containers.

I do not punch my dough down. Rather I turn it onto the counter; gently shape it in a rectangle and then roll it

The only way you can tell if your dough has doubled in size is placing it in a square container. A bowl has sloping sides, so a bowl distorts volume

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@LamsMekk

“Omg I’ve so relieved that you’ve said this!!!! I have made atleast 4 things using his recipies and every single one of them he come out overly, overly moist, verging on soggy. I honestly for so disheartened because I thought it was my fault and I was just incompetent at following the recipes! I’m so happy!”

another real problem with the Internet is these untrained bakers don’t understand the differences in flour and how these differences effect the finished product. And they don’t realize that flour varies significantly by brand and by county.

they never make any mention of the brand flour they use, the protein and ash content. In fact protein is so significant the brand flour he used for the cinnamon rolls now prints the protein content on their flour bags with a brief explanation about protein content.

It’s so important that artisan bakers work with mills every year to ensure the flour blends are consistent for their regular stock, and new blends are developed to introduce new products.

In my baking binder, I indicate the protein level of the flour, then in parentheses brand(s) I use for that formula. I never write “all purpose “ or “bread flour” because all purpose flour in the UK has 9% protein; 10% - 11.7% protein in the US; 13% in Canada. So writing all purpose flour is absolutely meaningless and will cause nothing but problems for bakers if I distribute it.

 

[LamsMekk]

I have not tried any of her recipes though I checked out a few of her videos. Overall I like what I see in some of her videos. though she definitely does things incorrectly with the kneading, using wrong temperature butter in creaming etc.

I would not add a bunch of on the counter when kneading. Do you see how much excess flour still on the counter when she’s done? She’s not using the flour for anything other than convenience to herself because she doesn’t know how to deal with a sticky dough.

Rather I would increase the flour in the recipe by about 5%. Do you know the weight of the flour is 340g.

340 x .05 = 17 so that comes to 357.

So just round up 360g.

I would just use active dry yeast if you have it. She stated that you should increase active dry yeast 9g. That’s plenty for 360 g of flour.

Sprinkle the dry active yeast over the milk. Let the yeast develop in the milk. Do not add the fat into. Fat will inhibit the development of yeast.

I let my dough rise until double. I do not use bowls because you cannot tell the volume change in a bowl. I use square food containers.

I do not punch my dough down. Rather I turn it onto the counter; gently shape it in a rectangle and then roll it

The only way you can tell if your dough has doubled in size is placing it in a square container. A bowl has sloping sides, so a bowl distorts volume
View attachment 3039
View attachment 3038

Thanks I will give her recipe a go!

Last night it did occur to me that BECAUSE I’m using a round bowl I may in fact be over proofing the first time around because it’s so difficult to tell when the dough has doubled in size. This would in turn affect the second proof.

I will order one of those containers and see if this improves my success with the second rise.

 

[LamsMekk]

@LamsMekk

“Omg I’ve so relieved that you’ve said this!!!! I have made atleast 4 things using his recipies and every single one of them he come out overly, overly moist, verging on soggy. I honestly for so disheartened because I thought it was my fault and I was just incompetent at following the recipes! I’m so happy!”

A problem with the Internet is these untrained bakers don’t understand the differences in flour and how these differences effect the finished product. And they don’t realize that flour varies significantly by brand and by county.

they never make any mention of the brand flour they use, the protein and ash content. In fact protein is so significant the brand flour he used for the cinnamon rolls now prints the protein content on their flour bags with a brief explanation about protein content.

It’s so important that artisan bakers work with mills every year to ensure the flour blends are consistent for their regular stock, and new blends are developed to introduce new products.

In my baking binder, I indicate the protein level of the flour, then in parentheses brand(s) I use for that formula. I never write “all purpose “ or “bread flour” because all purpose flour in the UK has 9% protein; 10% - 11.7% protein in the US; 13% in Canada. So writing all purpose flour is absolutely meaningless and will cause nothing but problems for bakers if I distribute it.

Yes, I mean It’s amazing if you already have a base level understanding of things but if you don’t you can really end up baking some disasters because key pieces of information are missed out in the videos.

Are there any cookery books that you would recommend for cakes?

Many thanks

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@LamsMekk, yes, the devil is in the details. Baking is all about the science. Most of what is out there is based on incorrect and/or incomplete information. Pastry chefts who write cookbooks dumb down the recipes because they assume home bakers are lazy and won‘t read and follow instructions; cannot access the same tools and ingredients; do not possess the skill and knowledge to perform the tasks. While these assumptions are true to some extent, no pastry chef pop out of the womb knowing how to bake. So if they learned, others can learn with the correct information and practice.

I’ve been fortunate to have had access to reputable culinary schools and award winning instructions over the years. But I also do a lot of baking science research and training on my own. Culinary schools offer some science, but their main focus is the practical side of baking and pastry arts. For the science of baking, you have to turn to academia. It’s the food science and agricultural departments of universities that get deep into the science of baking ingredients, baking on the molecular level, food preservation, packaging, etc. So that’s my segue into answering your question on cake cookery books.

Any cake cookbook written and published in the US will NOT translate to the UK unless the recipes are:

1) Formulated for unbleached because bleached flour is banned in the UK and European Union; unbleached flour has higher levels of protein, thus is far more absorbent then bleached flour, so all formulas must be adjusted for the differences. There’s other performance differences between unbleached and bleached, but hydration levels is a major (critical) factor.

2) Scaled to metric weight, because Americans persist in using their idiotic measuring cups and spoons. Americans have no standard for 1 cup to metric weight conversion and every baker just makes up what ever they want for an equivalent. Some examples: RLB uses 1 cup = 120 g; Dorie Greenspan 1 cup = 135g; America’s Test Kitchen 1 cup = 142g; Stella Parks 1 cup = 142g — “Oh wait, I don’t like that, let me change that back to what I used to use 1 cup = 120g”. Now bakers don’t know if they have a Stella Parks 142g cake recipe or a Stella Parks 120g cake recipe.

3) Eggs in the US are graded differently than the UK and European Union. A large US egg OUT of the shell is about 50g - 53g and with about a max weight of 56.7g in the shell. The large eggs OUT of shell the UK are about 59g - 69g with a weight range of 63g - 73g in the shell. Recipes usually state the number of large eggs, rather than specifying the weight of the eggs. So a cake recipe developed in the US must be reformulated for publication in the UK using medium eggs.


I know RLB revised one of her cake cookbooks for the UK. But I do not know which one specifically. So I am hesitant to recommend any cake cookbook.

But learning the science is key. Short of buying Suas’ textbook, I would recommend you look at the science of cake. Just google things like “cake science pdf”. In adding the “pdf” it will pull up any academic papers. The more you understand about the science of baking, the capable you are when looking at a recipe and analyze it. The only reason I can troubleshoot my baking problems is I understand the science. Without the science, my failures are just mysteries.

And the best part of knowing the science is it allows me to develop my own recipes. I don’t have to analyze someone’s recipe and make adjustments for my flour, my sugar, or other ingredients.

example of adding “pdf” on a search.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/cakes/

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/

https://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/

 

[LamsMekk]

@LamsMekk, yes, the devil is in the details. Baking is all about the science. Most of what is out there is based on incorrect and/or incomplete information. Pastry chefts who write cookbooks dumb down the recipes because they assume home bakers are lazy and won‘t read and follow instructions; cannot access the same tools and ingredients; do not possess the skill and knowledge to perform the tasks. While these assumptions are true to some extent, no pastry chef pop out of the womb knowing how to bake. So if they learned, others can learn with the correct information and practice.

I’ve been fortunate to have had access to reputable culinary schools and award winning instructions over the years. But I also do a lot of baking science research and training on my own. Culinary schools offer some science, but their main focus is the practical side of baking and pastry arts. For the science of baking, you have to turn to academia. It’s the food science and agricultural departments of universities that get deep into the science of baking ingredients, baking on the molecular level, food preservation, packaging, etc. So that’s my segue into answering your question on cake cookery books.

Any cake cookbook written and published in the US will NOT translate to the UK unless the recipes are:

1) Formulated for unbleached because bleached flour is banned in the UK and European Union; unbleached flour has higher levels of protein, thus is far more absorbent then bleached flour, so all formulas must be adjusted for the differences. There’s other performance differences between unbleached and bleached, but hydration levels is a major (critical) factor.

2) Scaled to metric weight, because Americans persist in using their idiotic measuring cups and spoons. Americans have no standard for 1 cup to metric weight conversion and every baker just makes up what ever they want for an equivalent. Some examples: RLB uses 1 cup = 120 g; Dorie Greenspan 1 cup = 135g; America’s Test Kitchen 1 cup = 142g; Stella Parks 1 cup = 142g — “Oh wait, I don’t like that, let me change that back to what I used to use 1 cup = 120g”. Now bakers don’t know if they have a Stella Parks 142g cake recipe or a Stella Parks 120g cake recipe.

3) Eggs in the US are graded differently than the UK and European Union. A large US egg OUT of the shell is about 50g - 53g and with about a max weight of 56.7g in the shell. The large eggs OUT of shell the UK are about 59g - 69g with a weight range of 63g - 73g in the shell. Recipes usually state the number of large eggs, rather than specifying the weight of the eggs. So a cake recipe developed in the US must be reformulated for publication in the UK using medium eggs.


I know RLB revised one of her cake cookbooks for the UK. But I do not know which one specifically. So I am hesitant to recommend any cake cookbook.

But learning the science is key. Short of buying Suas’ textbook, I would recommend you look at the science of cake. Just google things like “cake science pdf”. In adding the “pdf” it will pull up any academic papers. The more you understand about the science of baking, the capable you are when looking at a recipe and analyze it. The only reason I can troubleshoot my baking problems is I understand the science. Without the science, my failures are just mysteries.

And the best part of knowing the science is it allows me to develop my own recipes. I don’t have to analyze someone’s recipe and make adjustments for my flour, my sugar, or other ingredients.

example of adding “pdf” on a search.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/cakes/

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/

https://bakerpedia.com/ingredients/

Wow the difference in egg sizes is huge!!! Coupled with the extra protein in King Arthur flour which is what is used by many American youtubers, It’s no wonder I was getting an overly wet consistency in my cakes!

I absolutely hate cup recipes. It’s incredibly inaccurate and always very frustrating when I find wonderful looking cakes only to find out that the recipe is in cups!

Thank you so much for the bakerpedia links, I’ve never heard of the site before so those links should be an interesting read!!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Wow the difference in egg sizes is huge!!! Coupled with the extra protein in King Arthur flour which is what is used by many American youtubers, It’s no wonder I was getting an overly wet consistency in my cakes!

I absolutely hate cup recipes. It’s incredibly inaccurate and always very frustrating when I find wonderful looking cakes only to find out that the recipe is in cups!

Thank you so much for the bakerpedia links, I’ve never heard of the site before so those links should be an interesting read!!

Yup, its a huge difference. Even professional baker’s don’t always realize how these differences impact their work until it’s too late. RLB was horrified when she discovered her attempt to publish one of her cookbooks in the UK was destined to fail after the ban on bleached flour. The recipe testers there reported all recipes were failing. They had to revise, then retest every recipes. Essentially wrote an edition specific for release in the UK.

You’re just like me, nothing gets my goat like a recipe written in volume. Even though the industry in the US perpetuates it, no one in the industry actually uses it. That’s what irritates me the most. In their work and home kitchens, they all use metric weight. So why they continue to print recipes in those idiotic cups and spoons is beyond me.

 

[LamsMekk]

Ooooo what book is this?!

Yes cup recipes infuriate me results can vary so much from person to person!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ooooo what book is this?!

Yes cup recipes infuriate me results can vary so much from person to person!

That’s the thing, I don’t recall which book. She has 12 books. And to be honest, I have one of her books, and not a single cake came out well. And it’s not like I lack baking skills. I tried three recipes from the book I have, and had to revise all three extensively. Granted, I am particular about cake. But not cake should be dry. And one recipe stated the cake might even sink some what in the center. It’s for a chiffon layer cake. You’ve seen pics of my layer cakes, some of which are chiffon. Never do they sink in the middle. I don’t even use a heating core anymore for the layer chiffon cakes cuz I have perfected mine.

 

[LamsMekk]

Ok I’ll give it a miss then!
I managed to order a square container for proofing but I didn’t realise that it’s huge! It’s just arrived in the post and I’m now thinking that it may Present me the same issues as a round bowl?
It looks like I need to return it

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ok I’ll give it a miss then!
I managed to order a square container for proofing but I didn’t realise that it’s huge! It’s just arrived in the post and I’m now thinking that it may Present me the same issues as a round bowl?
It looks like I need to return it

If you do double batches, then that is a good size. But for single batch of cinnamon rolls, or one loaf or bread, that is too large. But I have a number of large containers in that size that I use for storing dry goods like rice. I have a BIG family. When we have family events, I use them to store and transports food. I cook big and I bake 2 tier cakes. My niece’s 7th birthday party had 45 guests. It was down from the year before, which was 65 guests.