Donuts not uniform + other issues

[eitak]

I have a recipe which I thought I was happy with however my donuts are shrinking/not keeping a uniform shape, they are blistering, and I’m not getting an even white ring around them.
Recipe/method is

177mls full cream milk
50grams of sugar
Bring to boil

Add
113grams butter
until melted
Bring down to room temp (which is about 26/27 degrees Celsius)

Add
60ml water
7grams active dry yeast
1 egg

Pour into mixing bowl and add
475 grams flour (I use 12.5% protein flour)
25grams diastatic malt powder
1 tsp salt
1/4 tsp nutmeg

mix until passed window pane test
Let double
Knock down
Place in fridge overnight
Fold on itself 3-4 times
Roll to 11ml thick, cut shapes
Proof at room temp (around 30/31degrees and in the80% humidity - I live in a hot place)
Fry at 180-190 (I set my fryer to 190 but it drops between 180-190)

After following some advice on another thread I made the following adjustments to the recipe

- remove water, add extra milk
- use correct DDT
- replace instant dry yeast with dry yeast
- remove diastatic malt powder
- knead less

After making the above changes I did as follows

With the dough I split it in two and put half right into the fridge and half I left out for the first rise.

Once the first rise had finished I knocked the dough back then placed it in the fridge.

When I took the dough out I split each half into half again.

Then for the dough that had received no first proof I lightly kneaded half rolled it out and cut my rings.

The other half I tipped onto the bench and rolled it without any kneading and cut it into shapes.

I repeated the above with the half of the dough I had allowed to have a first rise.

My results - obviously these changes made my results worse but I’m not sure what else to adjust to get the desired results

The photo of the donuts on the trolley is how my donuts were turning out before I made any adjustments to the recipe.

The donuts which received no first proof and no knead before rolling out kept their shape well but did not puff up when fried.

The donuts which received no first proof and had a light knead before rolling out shrunk, but did puff up when fried.

The donuts which received a first proof and no knead before rolling out kept their shape well but did not puff up when fried.


The donuts which received a first proof and had a light knead before rolling out shrunk, but did puff up when fried.

Surprisingly they all have an ok texture

HELP? Do I just stick with my original donuts and accept they aren’t uniform coz I’m not a machine? Or is there a way to make them aesthetically pleasing?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I sent you a recipe. This recipe is a straight dough. It is also a raised yeast doughnut dough, not a brioche dough. So it really doesn’t make sense to mix it like a brioche dough and develop all that gluten in the dough.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@eitak
I definitely sense your frustration. Maybe it will help you if you understand a little bit about the science. Baking is all chemistry, a chemical reaction of all the ingredients to time and temperature.

There is NO gluten in flour.

Only two molecules that create the potential for what we call “gluten” when they bind with a water molecule. The amino acids (proteins) are:

• Gliadin - gives dough its extensibility (stretching) properties
• Glutenin - gives dough its elasticity (retraction) properties

The chemical reaction in baking is all about controlling and manipulating these two amino acids (proteins). How much flour, fat, water, sugar, beating determines the strength of that gluten network.

When a dough is beaten to “window pane” stage, an incredibly strong and IRREVERSIBLE gluten network is developed in the dough. In fact, all mixing develops irreversible gluten.

The shrinking of your doughnuts is caused by the development of elasticity (glutenin) in the dough.

Tenderizers include butter, sugar, and egg yolks. The recipe that you’re using does not contain enough fat or sugar to counter the development of gluten.

Home bakers are used to working with recipes. A recipe is a list of pre-measured ingredients and instructions on how to mix those ingredients. But baking is actually based on formulas not recipes.


A formula is established percentages of specific ingredients, the percentages of which have been calculated against the weight of the flour. A percentage is a number expressed as a fraction of 100. To create a formula in baking, a baker takes a specific set of ingredients; then using the weight of the flour, calculates a percentage of each of the other ingredients based on the weight of the flour.


In baker’s percentages, the flour is always 100%. An ingredient may be more than the 100% flour. For example, sugar is normally equal or slightly more (110%) than flour in a chocolate chip cookie.


I mentioned “tenderizers” in a formula. In your formula you have 475g flour; 113g butter; 50g sugar; approx 18g egg yolk.


The percentages of these tenderizers in the formula:

• 113 ÷ 475 = 0.237
• 50 ÷ 475 = 0.105
• 18 ÷ 475 = 0.037

Fats (butter and yolk): 27.4% and Sugar 10.5%

Your formula is low in tenderizers, uses a high protein flour, and mixes to the window pane stage. This combination results in a dough that has high gluten development. And that gluten development is irreversible. When you roll out the dough and cut your doughnuts, the dough retracts. It’s the formula; the mixing. Baking is all chemistry. Unfortunately nobody can change the chemistry—not even a master baker.

I know you feel very committed to this recipe.

Here’s something to think about. We get very caught up in a perception aesthetics. there are some things in Baking where aesthetics is really important. When you’re doing fine pastry perfection and precision is key. But when you’re doing something like a handmade doughnut the aesthetics cannot be absolute perfection and Percision. You don’t want the doughnut to look machine made. quite the opposite. The most important aspects of a ARTISAN HANDCRAFTED doughnut FLAVOR and the look of a HANDCRAFTED product. If your product taste really good, don’t worry so much that it looks handcrafted.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@eitak
I saw your message after I wrote this. Something you said in your message made me think of something. So go read your message. I had an idea. Not sure if it will work but I had an idea.

 

[eitak]

I made another batch and tried kneading less initially and kneading less before rolling. The ones not kneaded before rolling didn’t puff up. The ones that I did (only 3-4 kneads/turns) did puff up. Here’s the inside of one I kneaded til window pane, and then lightly kneaded before rolling.

The ones I knead the most are giving me a better crumb, but they are shrinking a little when cut. The less than perfect shape I can deal with but I want them as big as possible

Will try the tip you sent me in messages!
Not giving up

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Some times it’s really hard to tell when dough is over-proofed. Dough can look perfectly fine, but be over proofed. You have to touch it. It’s only through experience that you learn what properly proofed dough actually feels and looks like.

 

[eitak]

Some times it’s really hard to tell when dough is over-proofed. Dough can look perfectly fine, but be over proofed. You have to touch it. It’s only through experience that you learn what properly proofed dough actually feels and looks like.View attachment 3933



View attachment 3935

View attachment 3934

Do you think it’s over proofed from the final rise? Or from the long ferment causing the dough to be old?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Do you think it’s over proofed from the final rise? Or from the long ferment causing the dough to be old?

It is from the long fermentation is allowing too much yeast to develop. That in turn causes the over-proofing in a normal proofing cycle.


When I said there was no benefit to leaving a straight dough to ferment overnight you responded it was just a matter of convenience. That’s when it dawned on me that the recipe was formulated for same day frying—not overnight fermentation.

So I grabbed my ipad, instead of my phone, and I looked at the photos again. This time I zoomed in. Look at the outside of your doughnut in the second photos you posted. It looks baggy, like a balloon that’s been losing some of its air over the past few days.


Look at the first photos you posted. They look the same. They have slight dip indentations in them as well. Something kept bothering me when I first saw these photos: the screen hash marks all over the doughnuts. I kept looking at the damage left by the screens—why so much damage to the doughnuts? But now that I zoom in and see how flaccid the dough looks, I understand the damage.

Commercial dry yeast destroys dough. It wasn’t invented for baking, but for war. They needed to be able to feed soldiers on the battleground. They couldn’t take fresh yeast, so dehydrated it. Later they adopted it in commercial baking since dehydrated yeast is shelf stable, reproduces more rapidly than cake yeast, requires significantly less than cake yeast, and is significantly cheaper.


One gram of dry yeast contains about 25 billion cells. This concentration and it’s rapid reproduction means it destroys dough very quickly. Using commercial yeast is purely a convenience. Leaving a straight dough overnight with commercial yeast is a risky proposition as the yeast population rapidly expands; once yeast runs out of food, the yeast dies off.


When we say your dough is old, what we mean is that you let your dough sit too long, so too much yeast developed.


It’s at that critical point now where the population of yeast is so high they’re running out of food. Yeast may already be dying off, but the effects might not be showing.


The dough is cut into doughnuts. As the doughnuts begin to proof, the yeast population continues to reproduce and plow through whatever food is left. Now they’ve run out of food and then the yeast dies en masse. CO2 decreases. The doughnuts are overproofed in what should have been a normal proofing cycle.


When I zoomed and looked closely at the dough it shows signs of a weak dough even though you have indication of high gluten development (window pane test).


What you call misshapen, is actually a deflated doughnut. The doughnut is baggy instead of a tight puffed dough ball. Those little indentations marks are places where the dough has structure has collapsed. The damage marks from the cooling rack—that’s a weak dough that cannot hold its own weight.

Go back and take a look at Hole Doughnuts; zoom in on the doughnuts. Noticed that even though her doughnuts are misshapened because she hand cuts a tears a hold, but the doughnuts are still puffy and the skin is still tight. Now compare her doughnut to yours.


Leaving your dough overnight is destroying it. As I said in our off line conversations, it may be possible to work around the problems.


The amount of yeast and/or reducing the amount of time in the refrigerator are two possible solutions. we already talked about reducing the amount of yeast.

The other part of the solution I believe is reducing the amount of time in the refrigerator. Make the dough later in the evening, then fry your doughnuts earlier in the morning.


The other option is a strengthener. Flour and milk solids are strengtheners. So you could try adding a bit more flour or a high heat milk powder. The milk powder used in baking is the first one on the list. It is NOT sold on the retail market and not the milk powder in the grocery store. You have to purchase it from the restaurant supply stores. It is not the milk powder that is mixed with water to make milk. It is just the protein from the milk.

1. High Heat NFDM: Least soluble; processed at 190˚F for 30 minutes; primarily in dry mixes, baked goods, and meat items as it is only the protein from the milk; not sold to retail market
2. Medium Heat NFDM: processed at 160˚F to 175˚F for 20 minutes; typically in desserts, confectionaries, and dry mixes; not sold to retail market
3. Low Heat NFDM: processed at 160˚F for equal to or less than 2 minutes; reconstituted for drinking; chocolate dairy beverages, and frozen desserts; sold to retail market

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@eitak

This doughnut was made from that formula I sent you. You can see the difference in quality of dough; like your dough, it spent the night in the refrigerator. But it hasn’t deteriorated in the least.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

proper way to flour worksurface

take a pinch of flour between your forefinger and thumb. And yes there is a pinch of flour there.

Turn your arms sideways, and throw the flour across the counter as if you were throwing a frisbee to scatter the flour. Do not spread the flour with your hands. Place the dough on the flour. If needed gently rub the dough over the flour.

This is how much flour is on the surface. Home baker use way too much flour when they roll out there dough. When you roll tap out the dough from The center to the edge. And then begin to roll. This will elongate the dough . That way you don’t overwork the dough and develop any more gluten.

This is what I mean by “tapping it out.” This is for puff pastry but the concept is the same. Don’t roll it back and forth. Just gently tap it out to elongate it. And then gently roll out your dough.

edit: and for those who have been following me for a while, when I talk about tapping out the dough when rolling out the pie crust, this is what I am referring to

 

[eitak]

Ok so! I made the dough like normal. I left one batch overnight and one I didn’t refrigerate. Both I kneaded until window pane.

The dough I didn’t refrigerate kept it’s size although didn’t get as much height. Both have a similar crumb.

I think you’ve nailed it re: over proofed

Next step is making the dough with less yeast and leaving it overnight.

Thank you! I think I’m close to making this reviles work

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@eitak
OK that’s good news. I would definitely leave the diastatic malt out. Even though it is used primarily for browning, it’s an enzyme and it will cause the yeast to reproduce rapidly. So it’s just going to cause the dough to over ferment in the refrigerator overnight even if you reduce the amount of yeast.

 

[eitak]

Ok so I’m still going!

I removed the diastatic malt, I decrease the yeast by about 20%. I tried to get DDT but it’s hot here so the dough ended up being about 84 degrees Fahrenheit.

I did a shorter knead (not quite passing window pane), then split that in two. Half I did a bulk ferment before putting in the fridge for 8hrs, the other half went straight into the fridge for 8hrs.

I also did a longer knead (until window pane), then split that in two. Half I did a bulk ferment before putting in the fridge for 8hrs, the other half went straight into the fridge for 8hrs.

the dough temp before frying wax around 81/82 defeees Fahrenheit.

To be honest I can’t really see consistent changes. Overall the dough has definitely improved by adjusting the recipe, but I’m not sure the different kneading/proofing has done much. For example I thought I’d get similar results between the two shorter and two longer kneads. I dunno, definitely better, but still not quite 100%

What do you think?

 

[briochenewbaker]

@eitak

This doughnut was made from that formula I sent you. You can see the difference in quality of dough; like your dough, it spent the night in the refrigerator. But it hasn’t deteriorated in the least.

View attachment 3937

Can you please send me this recipe?! I am having the same issues

 

[briochenewbaker]

@eitak

This doughnut was made from that formula I sent you. You can see the difference in quality of dough; like your dough, it spent the night in the refrigerator. But it hasn’t deteriorated in the least.

View attachment 3937

Can you send me this recipe?! I have an issue with my donuts not puffing up enough and I don't know what I'm doing wrong

 

[Beachboy340]

Can you send me this recipe?! I have an issue with my donuts not puffing up enough and I don't know what I'm doing wrong

@Norcalbaker59 Yes - I'm having some similar issues to @eitak with the dough holding shape. Can you share your recipe as well?