Soft, spreading dough won't hold it's shape

[baytree]

Hi all, hoping someone can help!

I'm quite new at making sourdough bread and my problem every time is that once the dough completes bulk fermentation and I shape it, it won't hold it's shape. It's just too soft. It bakes ok, but the resulting loaves are often quite flat.

At first I thought it was high hydration and have reduced to 65% which initially makes a very firm, resistant dough ... but over the course of bulk fermentation becomes softer and stickier.

Is my starter to blame? I ferment it overnight and by the morning I'd say it's just about on the right side of becoming acid. Maybe it's gone too far and isn't active enough?

Maybe I'm manipulating it incorrectly? I do a 30 min autolyse, then stretch/fold for several minutes. Thereafter I stretch/fold every 45 - 60 mins.

Bulk happens at about 21 deg. celsius for a long period till all the usual signs are there - wobble, bubbles, volume rise, aroma, etc.

Am I overproofing? I don't think so, but maybe... I wouldn't say the dough has gone soupy - the window pane is still holding up really well so I think the gluten structure is still intact.

Am I underproofing? Well I did manage the required % rise in volume, so maybe not that

Am I not shaping it properly? I wonder if this could be the issue... I'm doing my best, but it's tricky, right? I can certainly achieve a respectably tight boule which sits up proudly, but then it softens and spreads during bench rest and final proving.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

Thanks!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Even high hydration dough will hold its shape. Most likely it’s your shaping skills. Keep practicing shaping with the lower hydration dough until you get it.

This is the proper way to shape. The dough in this video is some thing like 80% hydration, so very high.

If you purchase a scraper from the hardware store make sure it is stainless steel blade, does not have a coating on it, and has a handle that can be properly sanitized.

 

[chassis]

Stretch fold doesn’t sufficiently develop gluten in my opinion. It’s a way to avoid the much feared kneading.

I make a 70% hydration pizza dough with Tipo 00 and semolina rimacinata that additionally includes olive oil. I use the slap-fold or French fold method of kneading and the dough forms well, and reliably.

Develop the gluten and as mentioned above learn how to shape. It takes practice.

 

[baytree]

Thanks - better shaping and early kneading seem like very sensible suggestions.

With respect to kneading and manipulation, is the best approach to work the dough thoroughly at the start and then minimise manipulation as bulk progresses? I just wonder if repeated stretching and folding is one of the reasons my dough is flaccid.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[chassis]

Which flours are you using? Do you read or participate on thefreshloaf site? There is a lot of fear of kneading on that site.

When using wheat or semolina flours, knead away. Don’t be gentle. Learn the slap-fold technique.

Rye is a different beast. What are your bread formulae?

 

[baytree]

Which flours are you using? Do you read or participate on thefreshloaf site? There is a lot of fear of kneading on that site.

When using wheat or semolina flours, knead away. Don’t be gentle. Learn the slap-fold technique.

Rye is a different beast. What are your bread formulae?

I use 4 parts strong white (14% protein) and 1 part dark rye. I have no fear of kneading! Indeed it seems the obvious way to get a strong gluten matrix at the start of the process.

I'm familiar with slap and fold from my efforts making croissants. To be honest with the bread I only use 65% hydration and regular old fashioned bench kneading with the palm of the hand works fine. At that point the dough is smooth, elastic, and a tight ball. Also The window pane I can pull always seems good from start to end of bulk, and the bread will rise when baked, it's not a total frisbee.

But the ongoing frustration is the dough becomes soft, tacky and flaccid by the end of bulk and spreads under its own weight into a soft wide puddle. What happened to the proud ball of dough I had at the start of the process?!

a lot of people have suggested overproofing but the window pane seems good at the end of bulk and also once baked the crumb suggests underproofing to me - lots of rise but the entire tip half of the loaf is tunnels where the crust has pulled away from the crumb.

any thoughts?

 

[baytree]

 

[chassis]

Too much gas in the loaf in the photo above - could be because not de-gased after bulk or overpriced after shaping. Oven temp too high. Maybe also gluten underdeveloped. 65% could be on the low side depending on your ambient humidity. What part of the world is your location?

Slap fold example