Constant dough issues!

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Hello bakers & self proclaimed bakers!
64115037-85BD-4762-9876-B1781B2EE0D1.jpeg
I am making cream buns this morning after preparing brioche dough last night and putting directly in the refrigerator for 16 hours. I took the dough out the morning, let the gas out, and rolled into tight balls. This is 1.5 hours into proofing. My finger print still springs back so I know they’re not ready yet but why does my dough ALWAYS spread out and not up??! I use a high gluten flour and my dough always looks beautiful once I finish mixing and form it into a beautiful smooth ball. What am I doing wrong? I’m going to bake these once they’re done proofing and will upload a picture of them.
 
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Hello bakers & self proclaimed bakers! View attachment 4726I am making cream buns this morning after preparing brioche dough last night and putting directly in the refrigerator for 16 hours. I took the dough out the morning, let the gas out, and rolled into tight balls. This is 1.5 hours into proofing. My finger print still springs back so I know they’re not ready yet but why does my dough ALWAYS spread out and not up??! I use a high gluten flour and my dough always looks beautiful once I finish mixing and form it into a beautiful smooth ball. What am I doing wrong? I’m going to bake these once they’re done proofing and will upload a picture of them.
When I push down on the top, they don’t spring back. The inside is fully cooked but not light and fluffy :( :( they’re very soft and delicious but lack… structure I suppose is the word I’m looking for. I was hoping to make Maritizzis but these are just too soft.
 

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Hello bakers & self proclaimed bakers! View attachment 4726I am making cream buns this morning after preparing brioche dough last night and putting directly in the refrigerator for 16 hours. I took the dough out the morning, let the gas out, and rolled into tight balls. This is 1.5 hours into proofing. My finger print still springs back so I know they’re not ready yet but why does my dough ALWAYS spread out and not up??! I use a high gluten flour and my dough always looks beautiful once I finish mixing and form it into a beautiful smooth ball. What am I doing wrong? I’m going to bake these once they’re done proofing and will upload a picture of them.

Are you using instant yeast? If so, that’s the problem. Instant yeast is not the right yeast for long fermentation. It’s meant for dough that is going to be baked right away. Yeast feeds on sugar. Yeast will feed on sugars (starch) in flour. Instant yeast is a strain that reproduces at a high rate. When too much yeast develops, it plows through its food sources and dies off (gasses out).

Brioche is a high fat and sugar dough. So an osmotolerant yeast is best. Sugar is hygroscopic (attracts water). The high ratio of added sugar (10%+) pulls in a lot of water, leaving too little free water for instant and active dry yeasts. Osmotolerant yeast is able to thrive with less water.


Examples of different types of yeast

SAF Red: ascorbic acid*; not osmotolerant; short fermentation time; no rehydration required



SAF Blue: osmotolerant (sugar 10% - 30%); no oxidizing agent*; short fermentation time; no rehydration required



SAF Gold: osmotolerant (sugar 10 - 30%); long fermentation; no oxidizing agent; no rehydration required



SAF Premium: use 30% less yeast; short fermentation; not osmotolerant; no rehydration required; I don’t thing this one has an oxidizing agent...



SAF Active Dry: rehydrate; long fermentation; no oxidizing agent.
 
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I used SAF Gold here! That’s been my go to for higher sugars and over cold ferments. I’m really confused why I had this issue because I stopped proofing on the counter prior to the refrigerator and switched to SAF gold.
 
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I used SAF Gold here! That’s been my go to for higher sugars and over cold ferments. I’m really confused why I had this issue because I stopped proofing on the counter prior to the refrigerator and switched to SAF gold.
If using the appropriate yeast, then lack of rise and structure can be caused by the following:
Low protein flour: flour protein is too low (less than 12%). The high-fat content inhibits gluten development. So a high protein flour is required for strength and structure.


DDT: finished dough temperature is too high. Even if refrigerating dough, too high a finished dough temperature will result in yeast developing too quickly. It takes time for the dough to cool, giving yeast a jump on development. Too much yeast results in a flaccid dough as it outgasses. Beating = friction. Friction = heat. Eggs and milk temperature should be low to control heat. If you aren’t calculating DDT, you should. Calculate DDT to keep dough 82°F or less.



Improperly kneaded dough: not enough gluten developed in the dough. Do a windowpane test to ensure the dough has enough gluten.



Improperly incorporated eggs and butter: beat in eggs in increments and thoroughly beat between additions.



Butter added too soon: beat in butter in increments and only after some gluten has developed. Fat inhibits gluten; adding fat before some gluten is developed will result in lower gluten development overall.
 
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I'm using high gluten flour with 14%protein with .52% Ash. I lowered my fat a bit and upped my hydration in this recipe

My DDT was like 75 degrees at it's warmest.

I let the flour, water and yeast mix together for a few minutes, then added my eggs and salt. Mixed for about 5 minutes then added my butter 1/4 at a time over the span of 12 minutes. Then the entire dough mixed for roughly 15 minutes until a smooth glossy dough formed. I allowed the dough to rest in the mixer between adding the fats, not sure if that added any issues or not.

From all that I learned, I thought I was following all the "rules", but clearly something I'm doing is still not working. I have this issue with doughnuts, breads and buns. I will EVENTUALLY get to the bottom of it!

Is there anything else I could be missing that you ca think of after hearing more about my process?
 
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I'm using high gluten flour with 14%protein with .52% Ash. I lowered my fat a bit and upped my hydration in this recipe

My DDT was like 75 degrees at it's warmest.

I let the flour, water and yeast mix together for a few minutes, then added my eggs and salt. Mixed for about 5 minutes then added my butter 1/4 at a time over the span of 12 minutes. Then the entire dough mixed for roughly 15 minutes until a smooth glossy dough formed. I allowed the dough to rest in the mixer between adding the fats, not sure if that added any issues or not.

From all that I learned, I thought I was following all the "rules", but clearly something I'm doing is still not working. I have this issue with doughnuts, breads and buns. I will EVENTUALLY get to the bottom of it!

Is there anything else I could be missing that you ca think of after hearing more about my process?
It sounds like you’re doing everything correctly other than resting the dough between adding the butter.

It's important to develop gluten. Butter inhibits gluten develop. Resting allows gluten to relax, not idea.

If your dough is 75°F, that means there isn’t a lot of heat friction going on. So it can handle steady mixing to add the butter.

After adding the egg in increments; make sure each addition of egg is fully incorporated before adding more; then mix a few minutes after the last addition to ensure the egg is fully incorporated. Test to see how much gluten has developed. You want it about half way to the windowpane stage (has some stretch); then start adding the butter.

After the butter is incorporated, mix a few minutes more, then start performing windowpane tests. You don’t want to over mix the dough either.
 
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I'm using high gluten flour with 14%protein with .52% Ash. I lowered my fat a bit and upped my hydration in this recipe

My DDT was like 75 degrees at it's warmest.

I let the flour, water and yeast mix together for a few minutes, then added my eggs and salt. Mixed for about 5 minutes then added my butter 1/4 at a time over the span of 12 minutes. Then the entire dough mixed for roughly 15 minutes until a smooth glossy dough formed. I allowed the dough to rest in the mixer between adding the fats, not sure if that added any issues or not.

From all that I learned, I thought I was following all the "rules", but clearly something I'm doing is still not working. I have this issue with doughnuts, breads and buns. I will EVENTUALLY get to the bottom of it!

Is there anything else I could be missing that you ca think of after hearing more about my process?

Theres nothing wrong with your yeast,
theres nothing wrong with the dough you made... although milk instead of water makes a richer brioche but thats your choice.

Brioche always spreads, thats why its baked in a mold.
If you form round buns it will end up as burger buns, thats normal with brioche.

If you want round buns don't use brioche dough.
 
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Theres nothing wrong with your yeast,
theres nothing wrong with the dough you made... although milk instead of water makes a richer brioche but thats your choice.

Brioche always spreads, thats why its baked in a mold.
If you form round buns it will end up as burger buns, thats normal with brioche.

If you want round buns don't use brioche dough.

“If you want round buns don't use brioche dough.”

Simply not true
 
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Theres nothing wrong with your yeast,
theres nothing wrong with the dough you made... although milk instead of water makes a richer brioche but thats your choice.

Brioche always spreads, thats why its baked in a mold.
If you form round buns it will end up as burger buns, thats normal with brioche.

If you want round buns don't use brioche dough.
I don’t care about “round” as much as I do about troubleshooting my issue when making brioche in all forms. Breads, buns, doughnuts … I was thinking the shape could be a reason why my insides are always greasy and dense, while the outside never seems to have any strength.
 
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OK, so grab a recipe off youtube, any, don't modify it... follow their proofing schedule.
see if you get different results.

"the outside never seems to have any strength."
What does that mean, brioche is so rich it doesn't form a hard crust,
it would be nearly black by the time the crust hardened.
 
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OK, so grab a recipe off youtube, any, don't modify it... follow their proofing schedule.
see if you get different results.

"the outside never seems to have any strength."
What does that mean, brioche is so rich it doesn't form a hard crust,
it would be nearly black by the time the crust hardened.
Thanks for the advice.
 

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