What if we tried to make cinnamon rolls "better"

Discussion in 'Pastry' started by Debbborra, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    What if we made it a laminated dough? What would happen if we put the cinnamon sugar on the cold butter?
    It sounds like it could either be awesome or a greasy mess.
    Would the sugar keep the steam from lifting the layers?
     
    Debbborra, Mar 2, 2018
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    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    I think a laminated that would be great.

    With croissant dough there’s no yeast or sugar in the dough. So it would be less sweet and not bread or cake like in texture. But you would get that light as air flaky crust that shatters when you bite into it. How I love the shatter of croissants!


    A danish laminated dough would make a deliciously rich roll. It has the bread like texture. Like cinnamon rolls it contains yeast and eggs, so it is probably the most adaptable of laminated doughs for cinnamon rolls.


    Brioche might be another good dough to use. It’s not laminated. But it is a very rich dough.


    I experimented a few months back using tangzhong in cinnamon roll dough. It really created a beautiful roll. Very fluffy and moist. But darn if I can’t find my notes on that set of tests!
     
    Norcalbaker59, Mar 3, 2018
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  3. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    Tangzhong cinnamon rolls sounds like a win!
     
    Debbborra, Mar 3, 2018
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  4. Debbborra

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    It definitely gave a better rise than the standard recipe. Unsure of the rise I would get, I spaced them far apart. They filled in beautifully in about 1 hr. After baking the interior was light and fluffy. I for the life of me cannot find my test notes on this batch. So I have no idea what percentage of tangzhoug I used :(

    C03C069A-94FC-4A86-B5D0-D0BEC24546FC.jpeg

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    C1CB02F9-2D7F-494A-A319-31C7124C2845.jpeg
     
    Norcalbaker59, Mar 3, 2018
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  5. Debbborra

    Becky Administrator

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    Wow, those cinnamon rolls look amazing!! My mouth is watering reading this topic :D

    Sounds like an awesome idea to me. I would have thought using very fine sugar would work best, as bigger crystals are more likely to puncture the layers when you roll out. Maybe butter mixed with powdered sugar and cinnamon, then chilled?
     
    Becky, Mar 3, 2018
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  6. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    I'm going to try it. Maybe not this weekend because my brother is taking me to a pastry class on Sunday morning. But next weekend Which means I can watch some videos on laminating. Powdered or castor sugar may be the thing to do!
     
    Debbborra, Mar 3, 2018
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    Becky Administrator

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    Sounds like a good plan. Hope the pastry class went well! What did you make there?
     
    Becky, Mar 5, 2018
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  8. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    Pate choux and pastry creams (various flavors.) It was a lot of fun. All three of us cannot pipe. Or rather in the art of making pretty and reasonably sized pastry we are more in the abstract school than representational. But our dough and cream were absolutely delicious.
     
    Debbborra, Mar 5, 2018
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    Becky Administrator

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    Haha this made me chuckle! :D Sounds like great fun, and I'm glad to hear everything was delicious :)
     
    Becky, Mar 6, 2018
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  10. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    This was not an unmitigated disaster. I didn't burn the house down. There was no actual grease fire in the oven. It just smelled like one. I didn't burn myself cleaning up the moltan puddle of sugar and butter at the bottom of the oven. Yay.

    It was however a disaster. The smell of burnt butter is putrid! It smells like dead feet.

    What went wrong:
    Flat sheet pan
    Too much butter
    Too much pastry on the sheet pan
     
    Debbborra, Mar 12, 2018
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  11. Debbborra

    Becky Administrator

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    Oh no! :eek: Sorry to hear that. What approach did you decide to do in the end?
     
    Becky, Mar 12, 2018
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  12. Debbborra

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear! What recipe did you use?
     
    Norcalbaker59, Mar 12, 2018
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  13. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    I flew without a net. I watched a laminating video and guessed. Apparently a half pound of butter is ambitious. A recipe might be an idea.
     
    Debbborra, Mar 12, 2018
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  14. Debbborra

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    Well I’m sorry to hear it didn’t turn out. Laminated dough will definitely leak if the butter is not locked in tight.

    There’s a website called Weekend Bakery. The couple that runs the site are baking hobbyists, but bake on a professional level. They have a croissant laminated dough recipe on their site. They have both a traditional three day dough and a one day dough.

    There recipe is very good. The croissants in my profile picture were made from their recipe. They provide excellent instructions and photos with the recipe. So if you decide to tackle laminated dough again you may find their site helpful.

    The husband checks the comments section of his recipes every week. So if you have a question, if you leave it in the comment section he will respond.

    https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/classic-french-croissant-recipe/
     
    Norcalbaker59, Mar 13, 2018
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  15. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    When I work up some courage I'm going to check them out.
     
    Debbborra, Mar 13, 2018
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  16. Debbborra

    Becky Administrator

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    Don't let it get you down @Debbborra, we learn more from a challenge than we do from an unearned success ;)
     
    Becky, Mar 13, 2018
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  17. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    The successes are easier to clean up.
     
    Debbborra, Mar 14, 2018
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  18. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    So this is something that has been needling me. I can't figure out how I could have sealed them. Probably a bit good reason to check the link!
     
    Debbborra, Mar 14, 2018
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  19. Debbborra

    Norcalbaker59 Well-Known Member

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    Laminated dough has a wide learning curve. What I’ve discovered about laminating dough is butter lock method matters as much as brand of butter and percentage of butter weight to total dough weight.

    I much prefer the traditional French envelope lock to the English letter fold. The French lock wraps the dough on all four sides, with seams on top. The English lock leaves seams on two sides. With the French lock, the seams are tightly fused closed as you roll over the dough. So the butter remains tightly encased in dough.

    With the English lock you have to leave a border around the butter block to seal the side seams. I find butter sometimes oozes out of the seams during rolling. For me it’s just not as secure a butter lock.

    I perfer Kerrygold brand butter. The brand of butter really matters as pliability is key to rolling the dough without tearing the layers. If layers are torn during rolling, the dough fuses into a mass, and the butter leaks during the bake. Judging pliability based on the temperature of the butter is a rabbit hole as the body (spreadability) of butter is determined by butterfat composition.

    Butterfat is a mix of crystallized fat and liquid fat. The more crystallized fat in the butter, the harder the butter. Creating the right balance of crystallized and liquid fat is as much nature as it is an art form. In the spring and summer months there is less butterfat in the cows milk. So this lower butterfat butter will be sticky and leak its natural moisture. In the winter months there’s considerably more butterfat. But a high butterfat will result in a hard, brittle and un-spreadable butter.


    To counter the adverse effects of nature, the cream is temperature controlled in storage. Then during churning, the cream is actually tempered. Every butter producers has their proprietary method of tempering the cream. Without a doubt, Kerrygold has perfected the art of tempering cream to produce a butter of extraordinary spreadability. Their butter is pliable right out of the refrigerator.


    The pliability of Kerrygold takes the guesswork out of the equation. I make my butter block the night before I laminate dough. Then let it sit on the counter for about 5 - 10 minutes before I lock it in. It’s always soft and rolls out easily between the dough.

    In rolling the dough it’s very important that the layers not tear. If the layers inside tear, the butter will leak. So the butter needs to be very pliable. It should rolls out between the layers of dough as a separate layer.


    When rolling the dough I keep a close watch on how much elasticity is developing. With each pass of the rolling pin, I watch for signs of contraction. The minute it starts to show signs of contracting, I immediately stop rolling; I place the dough in the refrigerator for about 15 minutes to let the gluten relax.

    Also with each pass of the rolling pin I check to make sure the dough is not stuck to the counter. If you roll dough that is stuck to the counter, the bottom stays stuck to the counter while the top stretches outward and tears the layers inside. This will cause the dough to fuse in some spots and cause leaking during the bake.


    Other thoughts in laminated dough...

    The percentage of butterfat content is important. A butterfat of 83% - 85% is best for flavor and layers. I once used Vermont creamery cultured butter. Which is a delicious butter with an extraordinary 86% butterfat. I found it to be too greasy. I don’t what the key is too work with a butterfat over 85%.


    There is such a thing as too much butter. In a commercial bakery the total dough weight to the roll-in fat (the butter block) maybe 15% - 25%. This is usually due to cost controls. A low roll-in fat percentage will produce a very bland dough. But a total dough weight to roll-in fat above 50% can be way too rich, difficult to work, and produce a greasy finished product. A master baker will usually use 28% - 30% roll-in fat.


    I prefer to stay between 30% - 40% butter. The Weekend Bakery recipe is 31% roll-in fat to total dough weight.


    Unlike other ratios, the roll-in fat is always based on the total the weight, not the weight of the flour.


    The protein content in flour is also important. A flour with a protein of 11.5 to 12.8 works best for laminated dough. So King Arthur AP flour or an equivalent would be good. The Gold Medal and Pillsbury all purpose flours are too low in protein to make a good laminated dough.


    Total hydration is another factor. On the commercial side they tend to use around 50% hydration. The lower hydration dough produces very distinct layers and that wonderful crispy crust that shatters when you bite in to it.


    A higher the hydration dough is softer and has less distinct layers. The finished product has a nice moist chew.


    What I like about the Weekend Bakery recipe is it comes in at 56% hydration, so it will produce that shattering crust. And if you use a higher butterfat butter, it will provide plenty enough fat to create a moist bite.




    Demonstrates clearly the English fold method

    https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/croissant-dough



    A laypersons explanation of butter production

    https://drinc.ucdavis.edu/dairy-foods/butter-some-technology-and-chemistry

    This was my first attempt at laminated dough. Fail! The tight crumb is caused by pressing down on the rolling pin and stretching and tearing the layers. This dough is fused. It did not leak in the bake, but it didn’t expand into layers. This has more a cake crumb:(
    E91687F6-A0BE-48FF-B6D5-21A7149D02FE.jpeg

    This was the second attempt. I improved on the laminating process, but under proofed. So the honeycomb layers didn’t fully shape. And the dough was probably a bit too hydrated. While the crust was amazingly crisp, the interior was a bit moist. The third time was a charm. The crust and crumb were very good. I thought I had a photo of the inside of third batch, but don’t see it in my photo library.

    EFA1B34B-B65E-4CF9-B56F-0770876378FB.jpeg


    I won’t lie, laminated dough is really hard work. I still have a long way to go to achieve a consistently great finished product. The last time I made it, a few months ago, it was bad. Time before that it was near perfect. So it’s a step forward, a step back. A couple steps forward, a step back.
     
    Norcalbaker59, Mar 14, 2018
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  20. Debbborra

    Debbborra Active Member

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    I used a recipe for cinnamon rolls. It seemed like a good one. (Before I did terrible things to it)
    I used a package of kerrygold. It looked about right? I think I needed to have rolled it much, much thinner.
    I rolled out the dough, put the butter in the middle of the lower two thirds of the dough. I threw some unspecified amount of brown sugar on it. Then some cinnamon, them some sugar. I alternated. I didn't measure. Because we don't need no stinking measures! Right?
    I did a weird fold on the first go. Because there was a whole lot of dough at the top. And probably that was for the best.
    I put it all back in the fridge and did some laundry. Checked email and maybe watched something on tv.
    I rolled it out, until I got bored. Tri-folded it all into something about 7 inches tall. Back in the fridge. Did more of the stuff one does on Sunday.
    I turned it so I was rolling the short side long. (or rather the part that had been short because now it was a square) I rolled it out to about three inches thick?
    Back in the fridge.
    Turned and rolled.
    Back in fridge.
    Took it out and thought, what now? I guess I'll cut it into cubes. And there they were, all the layers on display. Inches thick. No seal at all. But I can't figure out how I could have sealed them.
    So, my guess is there needed to be more muscle applied? More rolling?
    It was a mess.
     
    Debbborra, Mar 14, 2018
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